Seahorse BBC2 now

[Hirsutefirs]

I wonder what the viewing figures are, for stuff like this: www.jeaniefinlay.com/seahorsefilm

I’m not going to watch it, for a start.

I’ve just watched this, I found rather sad by the end. I just really felt that I wished Freddie happiness, it won’t be easy. He seemed relatable and pretty human. I made not understand him at all, but I hope it works out.

Definitions are important for understanding.

Woman has baby by donor sperm - defined as mother. The sperm donor has fathered a child but is not performing the role of father. If she is in a relationship with a man does he go on birth certificate? Is it defined that he is not genetic father? Should it be? What if it is donor egg and donor sperm?

Above woman in lesbian relationship, both performing the role of mother. Both on birth certificate to have equal responsibility to the child they both wanted. Presumably the birth certificate defines genetic mother? I don’t know. What if the egg was from the parent who did not carry the baby? Is that defined? And if not should it be?

Woman carries baby (donor egg) for 2 men. What is she? Both men are performing the role of father, but she’s not the genetic mother but has given birth. Both are performing the role of father. They might have chosen not to know who is the genetic father, is that defined as such on the birth certificate? Does the child have the right to know who is genetic father?

And then you consider that it’s only since dna testing became commonplace/affordable that anyone was really able to know who their genetic parents are, as you don’t actually know who gave birth to you or who provided the sperm so birth certificates were not guaranteed to be accurate anyway, obviously less likely to be fabricated for the genetic mother but the genetic father could be incorrect.

It possibly needs to be split between a certificate of genetic heritage (still not sure where a surrogate with donor egg would be defined here) and a certificate of parental responsibility. Which would possibly if it was standard for all children born fit Freddie’s desire to be named as father while still retaining the genetic information for the child for medical purposes, knowing own heritage or avoiding procreating with your sibling purposes. I’m sure there are other reasons why it is important that I’m not currently coming up with.

Being pregnant changes you, physically and emotionally. Giving birth does the same. Being an involved caregiver to a child changes you, brains change, hormone levels change whether you are genetically mother/father or not.

I think the whole birth certificate model needs updating to take into account modern fertility interventions and parental responsibility of the people bringing up the child.

Should Freddie be able with the current model to say the child has father only? No because it doesn’t fit with the surrounding law. Pregnancy should be a protected characteristic independent of gender identity. Breast feeding should be protected independently of gender identity.

If sex and gender were defined legally as two separate things this wouldn’t be necessary, but they aren’t. The law is a mess.

I hope Freddie and Freddie’s child find their way and are happy. Fundamentally, only women have eggs, only women are pregnant and only women give birth. It’s a female body process not a feminine one. Do any of those make you a mother? I’m not sure, I’m not sure what would fit. Adopted adults can visibly struggle with how to describe genetic mother versus mother/adoptive mother, the language available is emotionally fraught. I’m not sure how it could be defined without new language though. Look at the outcry on here where a step parent refers to a child mother as birth mother because birth mother is understood to mean person who relinquished the child - language matters.

Mothering makes you a mother, parenting makes you a parent. Its an active process. Transman gave birth - accurate. Man gave birth - not accurate.

Freddie was on sky news today. Did anyone see it? Gave me the rage.

It was basically saying that testosterone is perfectly safe and it's just scaremongering by anti trans ppl to suggest otherwise.

It was basically saying that testosterone is perfectly safe and it's just scaremongering by anti trans ppl to suggest otherwise

If it's so safe why all the lawsuits?

www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/lawsuits/

Watching this I did not realise he was the Guardian employee!

Most people wouldn’t know either, Fluffy, I certainly didn’t and it wasn’t mentioned, if I remember correctly. Adds a whole new level to the story!

Having watched this recently I was struck by a number of issues

Firstly, I have of late been dipping into my librabry of psychoanalytic books and reading up about transexualism (the books were published prior to the trans issue becoming mainstream), fetishism and perversion. Recent posts here got me thinking and I realise that i am somewhat rusty and need to refamiliarise myself with the literature.

In the case of male transexuals (sex assigned male at birth) the papers I have read so far (of which more in subsequent posts) describe narcissistic over-involved, seductive (sometimes incestuous) mothers who perceive their sons as "part objects" from which to obtain narcissistic and other gratification rather than as human beings.

When I watched Seahorse I was struck by the extremely close relationship between Freddy and their mother. Freddy's mother was there holding their hand during the pregnancy scans and seemed to be the closest person to them. It seemed to me that there were definite Oedipal elements to the mother/child relationship. Psychoanalysts would say that there are always Oedipal elements in parent child relationships and I would agree, however they are highly evident in the relationship between Freddy and their mother.

Secondy I did not for the life of me understand why Freddy wanted a baby. This was never explained in the film at all.

If all is well people usually want to have a baby as an expression of love between 2 people. A baby that combines the best aspects of the 2 people in love with each other. Also there is usuallty a wish to provide love and nurturing to the baby and to help him or her to thrive in a loving environment.

In this film we know that Freddy wants a baby with their trans friend who is committed to co-parenting. When the friend suddenly drops out of the plan (for reasons that were never explored) Freddy still wants to continue just as before.

It seemed to me that the whole mission of having a baby was about gratifying some as yet undisclosed wish of Freddy's.

This is never a good reason to have a baby, whether you are male or female or trans or whatever you are. Babies are little people and not phallic extensions.

I mentioned phallic extensions as some women achieve, according ot the psychoanalytic literature, a sense of phallic ownership by bearing a baby.

In the unconscious there are equations between a baby and a phallus. Anything can be it's opposite or anything else in the unconscious however the equation between owning a baby and owning a penis is something I remember reading about when studying the work of Melanie Klein during my training.

I was extremely concerned about the selection of sperm and the discussion with the trans friend about using "black sperm", although Freddy's family is white and, as we saw happen, the trans partner dropped out of the plan suddenly.

Freddy also commented something about how they had to make do with the second choice of sperm as the first choice had sold out.

It felt as though this potential baby was being selected as if it was part of a chocolate assortment or some other consumer item.

I wanted to scream at the screeen "It's a baby not a phallic extension".

Then, once the baby had been born, Freddy commented on how the baby was an extension of themself.

To be fair to Freddy the world is full of dysfunctional people whose mothers gave birth to them with the unconscious wish that they could serve as phallic extensions, trasformational objects and transitional objects.

I have experienced the same sense of concern when witnessing a very narcisistic lesbian and her partner (both white) happily discussing whether to have a black, brown or white baby via AI.

I am an equal opportunities person when it comes to concern about babaies and narcisistic mothers.

The film was very confusing to me. It portrayed Freddy as a brave pioneer for having a baby, something that women do every second of every day.

I could not understand why, if Freddy was so grounded in a trans identity, they could have endured a pregnancy and all the changes to the body it bestows.

A film that asked many more questions than it answered

I...don't know quite what to say about the "phallic extension" theory.

Other than to say in my opinion it's bollocks.
I doubt any women actually give birth due to an unconscious wish to have a baby as a phallic extension.
This sounds uncannily like a theory written by a bloke needing to make the astonishing power of women to create life all about his willy and how much more desirable that is instead.

I read psychology at university. But it was the experimental science variety, not the penis-envy variety.

I wish Freddie and the baby well. It seems Freddie is a loving parent, regardless of gender identity, and hopefully they have good support around them.

Of course, various psychoanalytic concepts sound insane and outrageous to anyone unfamiliar with the development of the theories.

Personally I believe that it is extremely important to study all manner of models of psychological and psychoanalytical theories in a critical and skeptical manner.

My special interest is in how psychoanalytic theories are weaponised to oppress people and as a tool for social engineering.

This fascinating documentary details how the East German spy agency the Stasi pulled off the most effective espionage strategy documented in recent history).

The Stasi studied psychology, including psychoanalytic theory, in order to create an army of army of undercover agents, Romeo spies, trained in seduction in order to obtain secrets from the women they seduced.

Whatever you think about classical psychoanalytic theory you should understand that it has been used as a weapon to great effect by spies and the below documentary details this very well.

Just as happened in the days of the Stasi, psychoanalytic theory (which has evolved since the days of Freud) is being used today and weaponised by sinister forces.

In the following documentary a political military cult (considered a terrorist organisation by some nation states) Mujahedin-e Khalq aka the People’s Mujahideen of Iran is depicted.

from the blurb:

"Massoud Rajavi is the leader of this bizarre Iranian Cult who over the years helped Ayatollah Khomeini overthow the Shah, then declared war on the Islamic Republic ruthlessly killing their fellow countrymen. They allied themselves with Saddam Hussein but now that he is gone are ardent supporters of the coalition. The MEK has switched allegiances so often that any underlying ideology is long gone.”

Fascinating documentary here in which women in particular were manipulated via psychological methods to abandon their families and to focus all their loving / romantic feelings onto the cult leader.

What the MEK has in common with the Stasi’s espionage strategy is the weaponisation of psychology and psychoanalytic theory in order to manipulate women.

If readers wish to gain insight into how psychoanalytic theory has been weaponised to oppress women, these documentaries are important.

My point is not that psychoanalytic theory is good or bad. My point is that it has been weaponised to seduce and oppress women and to manipulate people generally and to engineer social change.

Of course psychoanalytic theory is of great importance given that historically it has been used to understand behaviours such as transsexualism, hysteria, fetishism, etc. The UK centre for understanding the pathological expression of these phenomena has been the Portman Clinic, part of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, the same organisation that is now promoting the transgender agenda and advocating the prescribing of hormones to children. It is probably the same organisation that provided services to Freddy.

It is intersting to reflect upon how an organisation that only 20 years ago would have pathologised Freddy's situation via psychoanalytic theory is now prescribing hormones to children and promoting transgenderism.

How on earth did this happen?

I believe that we have to explore the historical development of the psychoanalytic and other psychological factors if we are to understand how we arrived at where we are today politically and socially generally and in relation to the transgender agenda.

Just to put my cards on the table

I very much "get" psychoanalytic theory.

I did extremely well in my training. It makes absolute sense to me that humans are under the influence of deeply unconscious anxieties and desires that we do not understand consciously.

You only have to watch advertisments to understand that there is a huge industry centered around the manipulation of desire.

It makes absolute sense to me that many of the unconscious processes that compel humans to behave in certain ways are to do with pre-verbal infantial anxieties and desires, many of which are to do with the body and the mother's body.

I have studied cults and criminals that use psychological manipulation as part of their modus operandi for many years. It is evident to me that cults and sinister forces are using psychological manipulation to socialy engineer change.

I do however believe that all theory is provisional and subject to further revision.

I also think that psychoanalytic theory can be used for good or for malicious purposes.

I am going to do my best to explore some of the psychoanalytic theories regarding the transgender issue so that we can examine together how we arrived where we are today.

If readers wish to critically appraise these theories, all well and good. I am not promoting any agenda other than to critically appraise past and current theories that have provided the foundation for the work at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in general and the Tavistock gender services in particular.

"Mr Seahorse" used to be a joke people made about a certain kind of unfortunate fanfiction in which Harry and Draco are shagging and now one of them is mpreg that would be passed around the internet to be mocked by all and sundry.

It was a joke, guys. Not a very good one, granted, but come on, you weren't meant to take it seriously..

I read psychology at university. But it was the experimental science variety, not the penis-envy variety.

I would respecfully suggest that you do read up on the penis envy theories.

You might also be interested in the work of Karen Horney on womb envy and vagina envy. (The Wikipedia page on this is not at all well written, I will see if I can find some primary sources for you)

The clue that these theories might just be relevant is that vast numbers of men and women are undergoing life changing, dangerous surgery as part of an attempt to change sex.

I do not believe that penis envy, womb envy and vagina envy are the only causal factor and they may only be relevant to some people for some of the time, but given current events surely it is worth exploring what these theories actually say before dismissing them?

"Massoud Rajavi is the leader of this bizarre Iranian Cult who over the years helped Ayatollah Khomeini overthow the Shah, then declared war on the Islamic Republic ruthlessly killing their fellow countrymen."

It was ultimately the US/UK who forced the Shah Pahlavi to go into exile. They planned to instal a regime led by "friendly" ayatollahs and then eventually replace them with the shah's son.
Khomeini hated the MEK and the MEK was a Marxist organisation, whereas the current regime in Iran is a right wing theocracy.
Khomeini returned to Iran from France two weeks after the Shah went "on vacation" never to return.

andyoldlabour

Iranian history is not my strong point, however I was, at one point, in a situation where someone from the MEK (an organisation I knew next to nothing about) attempted to recruit me.

They depicted the MEK as a Maxist / feminist organisation.

I soon discovered that the MEK in the UK was fraudulently obtaining funds via a scammy charity called Iran Aid, fronted by a very interesting character called Belinda McKenzie.

Belinda Mckenzie is notorious for promoting conspiracy theories about satanic ritual abuse and for being the ladlady of former MI5 agent David Shayler. remember him? He later changed his name to Dolores Kane and declaired that he was god and that god was a woman.

Were you aware of the MEK's links to Belinda McKenzie and the Iran Aid scandal?

Have you watched the documentary I linked to?

The documentary was broadcast by Al Jazeera that, of course, has its own agenda. I would be interested in your opinion of the documentary, especially with regards to the emotional and sexual manipulation of women

I have been taking a look at something called Body Integrity Disorder (BID) aka Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) from Wikipedia

Body integrity dysphoria (BID, also referred to as body integrity identity disorder, amputee identity disorder and xenomelia, formerly called apotemnophilia) is a disorder characterized by a desire to be disabled or discomfort with being able-bodied beginning in early adolescence and resulting in harmful consequences.[1] BID appears to be related to somatoparaphrenia.[2] People with this condition may refer to themselves as "transabled".[3][4][5]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria

It seems to me that there are at least 2 different types of BIID/BID (of course there may be many more). The majority of people with BID/BIID experience strong compulsions to amputate one or more limbs or other body parts.

The reason I would hypothesise that the amputee focussed BIID might have different causal factors than non-amputee focussed BIID is that:

a) According to a study in the literature of 54 BIID subjects over half of them (55.6%) were focussed on the desire for amputation.

source:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/

(the above paper is well worth a thorough read IMO)

For this reason alone it seems logical to regard BIID as having 2 categories, that is amputation focussed and non-amputation focussed, purely as a provisional way of thinking about the data.

Interestingly the authors of the above paper (who I do not have time to research right now but who very well might be interesting) come to an entirely different conclusion - they claim:

"Conclusions
The amputation variant and paralyzation variant of BIID are to be considered as one of the same condition. Amputation of the healthy body part appears to result in remission of BIID and an impressive improvement of quality of life. Knowledge of and respect for the desires of BIID individuals are the first steps in providing care and may decrease the huge burden they experience.”

Readers here can read the paper and develop their own hypotheses.

Also it seems to me that the human body can be disabled in a wide variety of ways. Interested readers will find horrifying cases on youtube including one of a woman who blinded herself (astonishingly with the compliance of a psychologist!) using drain cleaner. Also another woman who, although perfectly well able to walk and to ski to an advanced standard, prefers to use a wheelchair for most of the time and is searching for a surgeon willing to paralyse her legs. It seems logical to hypothesise that within the non-amputation focussed group there may be a wider and diverse range of causal factors than in the amputation focussed group.

b) If we return to classical psychoanalytic theory, amputation is symbolic of castration in a very obvious sense. Thus is makes sense to hypothesise (provisionally of course) that there may be a common unconscious anxiety / desire (anxiety and desire are commonly linked in the unconscious) regarding castration that features in gender dysphoria as well as the amputation focussed people with BIID.

I would like to just share some thoughts on the psychoanalytic concept of castration as it does not simply refer to the removal of the penis and / or testes.

I have limited time right now but in my next post here I am going to summarise some theories and will try to make some very complicated theories easy to understand. i am not claiming to be teaching correct or truthful concepts, simply trying to explain complex theories in an accessible manner. Readers are very welcome to examine them critically. I would welcome such skeptical / critical appraisal.

My intention regarding this is to encourage playful, thoughtful, reflective discussion and thought. This is important because thinking and thoughtful discussion and reflection are currently being policed and prohibited in a number of ways, as readers will be painfully aware.

in the meantime some videos for interested readers to view

I will also, in subsequent posts here, be identifying the connections between neo-tantric sex cults and at least one psychiatrist providing therapy to people with BIID. If a clever reader wants to make the connection before me, please be my guest. I absolutely love people making connections for themselves.

This individual has BIID. It's not mentioned in this article that 'Chloe' is actually male. So both transabled and transgender.
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chloe-jennings-white_n_3625033

"Iranian history is not my strong point, however I was, at one point, in a situation where someone from the MEK (an organisation I knew next to nothing about) attempted to recruit me."

I think you had a very lucky escape then, because they are a very dangerous and paranoid organisation. I think had they been in charge of Iran back in 1979, then it could have ended up in a similar state to North Korea.
One of my wife's cousins ended up being radicalised by them and was then caught and executed by the Khomeini regime.

Well spotted OldCrone :)

Let us take a closer look at Chloe Jennings-White and their psychiatrist

The following text is from an obscure blog but definitely worth a read

MY LIFE STORY: BY Chloe Jennings-White
physically healthy... and now want a surgeon to cut my spinal cord: Rare condition has made woman, 58, disown her legs
Chloe knew at 4 she was different and wanted to live as a disabled person
She wanted to wear leg braces like her aunt, hurt in an accident
Aged 9, she caused an accident to stop her own legs from working
Now she enjoys the excitement of downhill skiing - because she might fall
She spends most of her time in a wheelchair, but is still able to stand up
A doctor is willing to help her become disabled, but it costs £16,000
Psychiatrist: 'Is it better pretending to use a wheelchair or commit suicide?'
By Abrar ahmed

View
comments

A Cambridge University educated research scientist is so desperate to live the life of a wheelchair-bound person she is prepared to pay a doctor help her become disabled.
Since childhood, Chloe Jennings-White has made several attempts at injuring herself so she can finally climb into her own wheelchair.
In 2010 she even found a doctor overseas willing to help her become disabled by cutting her sciatic and femoral nerves, but she could not afford the £16,000 costs.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190919100914/uniqeheart.blogspot.com/2016/05/my-life-story-by-chloe-jennings-white.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190919100914/uniqeheart.blogspot.com/2016/05/my-life-story-by-chloe-jennings-white.html

So I decided it might be interesting to check out the psychiatrist treating Chloe Jennings White, Mark Kim Malan

Mark Malan Board Certified Sexologist

Mark Kim Malan, PhD, MPH, ACS, Board Certified Sexologist

Terminal Degree: Doctor of Philosophy – Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality
Assistant Professor of Sexology: IASHS San Francisco
Certifications: Board Certification – American College of Sexologists
Clinical Sexology - IASHS Certified Sexuality Educator - IASHS

Professional Affiliations:
AASECT - American Association of Sex Educators Counselors and Therapists
ISNA - Intersex Society of North America
SMSNA - Sexual Medicine Society of North America
SSSS - Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality
WAS - World Association for Sexology
WPATH - World Professional Association for Transgender Health
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20161006034713/www.sextherapyutah.com/dr-mark-malan" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20161006034713/www.sextherapyutah.com/dr-mark-malan

This psychiatrist Mark Malan also offers therapeutic services to people leaving cults. He is a former Mormon and much of his practice related to helping former Mormons to live “authentically” following the shame and sexual repression that former Mormons experience. Which would be great if he did not have so many connections to dangerous sex cults via the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality (IASHS) the same highly dubious organisation from which Tuppy Owens (paedophile ally) acquired her “doctorate”.

The IASHS is an organisation worthy of scrutiny (understatement). Just for starters the faculty includes none other than former porn actress and promoter of the odious, racist Deer Tribe child abuse cult Annie Sprinkle and Joseph Kramer, Ph.D. - Professor (lol) of Somatic Sexology. The Adjunct Faculty includes K. Ray Stubbs aka Kenneth Ray Stubbs aka Ken Stubbs a co-author of the notorious “Deer Tribe Manual” in which the sexual abuse of minors is advocated and promoter of sex work as a sacred path via his various websites and books. Stubbs is a really interesting example of how a disabled gay man with an impressive background in human rights activism has drunk so deeply from the Kool Aid that he is now promoting a racist child abuse cult. Stubbs in just one of the reasons why it is now time for gay man and disabled people to make their voices heard in protest against this kind of astroturfing and appropriation of their causes and identities.

Back to Mark Malan; unfortunately many survivors of controversial religious and personal development organisations (what some would call cults) go on to be treated with “therapy” from therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists who are themselves involved in cults of a different kind.

If former Mormons experience guilt, shame and sexual repression as a result of their religious background (feelings that are not restricted to Mormonism but are experienced by people from all kinds of religious and non-religious backgrounds) it is easy to understand how they would be vulnerable to a mental health practitioner extolling the virtues of sexual awakening and living an ecstatic / blissful life courtesy of sex cults.

of course this snippet is also worthy of scrutiny

Psychiatrist: 'Is it better pretending to use a wheelchair or commit suicide?'

We will discover this rationale for experimental, dangerous surgery and therapies used again and again. It might be worth reflecting upon?

andyoldlabour

So sorry to hear of your wife's cousin. I have heard other similar accounts. I am aware that this is an extremely dangerous group.

I was never at any point tempted to drink this partucuar brand of Kool Aid.

I need to add a warning here about honey traps, male and female.

Anyone researching these issues or who is an activist against cult / therapy abuses needs to be on the alert for honey traps.

If you are an activist against these abuses and you suddenly meet someone who ticks all your boxes be on your guard.

This article was linked to on another thread yesterday. It's from 2000, when it was still acceptable to say that gender dysphoria was a psychological illness.

Healthy limbs cut off at patients' request

The two men were suffering from an extremely rare form of body dysmorphic disorder known as apotemnophilia. Those suffering from the disease have an obsessive belief that their body is "incomplete" with four limbs and will only be complete after amputation. In most cases of apotemnophilia the desire to be an amputee is linked to a form of sexual arousal

The disorder takes over patients' lives and Mr Smith said that one of his patients had already tried to persuade friends to shoot off one of her limbs.

Kenyon Mason, a professor dealing with medical ethics, said the law would view the case in much the same way as it would gender reassignment. "As long as you say that people can have a sex change for what is a severe psychological disease, then it is difficult to say you cannot have an amputation for this form of severe psychological disease," said Professor Mason.

I have not watched the documentary. I'm unsure if I want to.

However I am a single mother by choice (DC donor conceived) and part of a single mothers by choice Facebook group. Following the documentary the admins decide to create an 'inclusivity poll' to see if we can be more inclusive and change the group from a mothers group to parents group. This seems to be mostly driven by one admin member who has been in touch with Freddie. Freddie will join the group if it's explicitly an inclusive group. I think a lot of the mums relate to Freddie from the going it alone by choice aspect. There has been a lot of talk about how amazing the documentary was.

I actually didn't like the poll options as even the 'keep things as they are' option was written as 'for people who identify as women/mothers' which is not actually about biological sex. The admins have already admitted lots of men try to join the group (trying to pick up single mums probably!)

Anyway the decision was to create a separate parents group - right decision. However someone in the mothers group now feels they don't belong as they recognise themselves as gender fluid and they don't want two groups. Not sure why they joined the group in the first place if they feel that way

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. I know this is just about a Facebook group which I can easily leave, and I have no issue with the all parents group. I just feel uncomfortable for the undercurrent feeling that for wanting the group to be women only is a bad and negative thing.

This subject matter is all quite new to me and I struggle to articulate it.

Did you try pointing out that the group is for mothers and Freddie is a mother so is welcome to join? If Freddie wants to self-exclude because they don't think they should be part of it then that's their decision.

@testing987654321 I think this is the problem, people stay quiet at risk of being accused of transphobia / not being inclusive. Particularly when so many of the single mothers were in awe of Freddie's story.

I also stay quiet because I'm still trying to get my head around it all and don't feel confident enough to be able to articulate myself. Some of the mothers in the group (not commented) I have context with in real life so I need to be careful and sure of what I'm saying.

Yes Freddie wouldn't join the mothers group as it's not inclusive for all parents. It was another mother who now feels excluded because many want to keep it women only and they identify as gender fluid.