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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans Widows Escape Committee 3: Rise of the Trans Widows

942 replies

TinselAngel · 18/08/2019 18:28

Less than two years have passed since the first TWEC thread and now its time for a third.

This is a support area for women who are, or have been, in unhappy relationships with male partners who are transitioning, or exploring their "gender identity"

If you are in that position-

  1. You are not alone
  2. It is not a situation that you should be expected to tolerate, let alone celebrate.
  3. There is always a way out, if you want it. The thread is called Escape Committee for that reason

Remember: women talking to each other is a powerful weapon!

Regulars- do post here to get the thread going.

Lurkers- now would be a great time to de-lurk.

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Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 12:56

Makes me sceptical too. I mentioned a few weeks ago that ex said he was making a conscious effort to rein in his fetish - I believe he meant it; but that doesn't mean he's going to succeed, does it? And the statistical likelihood is that he may have some initial success but it won't last.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 13:15

ex said he was making a conscious effort to rein in his fetish - I believe he meant it;

Oh yes I think often they do mean it. I'd never advise any other women to depend on it though.

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TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 13:17

I mean they mean it at the time they say it. It generally doesn't last.

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Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 13:26

I think that's one of the hardest things, that they mean it.

There's a thread in Relationships at the moment, a young woman's head's all over the place because her boyfriend violated the terms of her consent but he says and she believes he didn't mean it. My heart's breaking for her; she's got such a long and painful path ahead of her working this shit out.

It goes back to that illusion of male rationality and objectivity I think. They mean it on a conscious intellectual level at the time. They honestly believe they mean it. There's no deliberate, conscious malice. And yet their behaviour is repeatedly abusive, because they think their rational thoughts are more important than the reality of their actions in the real world.

And you can tie it to trans shit too. It doesn't matter what words are in someone's head, whether their intentions are benign - if their behaviour is experienced as abusive or damaging it cannot, must not, be excused and handwaved away on the grounds of words in their heads that no one else can see or hear or verify.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 13:37

It's taken me 40 odd years to realise that the question should not be "Does he mean it/ can he help it?"

The question should be "Is this how I want to live my life?" And that if the answer is "no", even if you feel sorry for him, you get the fuck out and live your own life, your own way.

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PhantomSelf · 01/09/2019 13:51

Actually he went through all, hotels the lot! He's found he doesn't want that-he doesn't want validation. It's a sex thing, a relaxing thing. It has been a bit of a strife, well through his mid life anyway. He knows it's going to be with him for ever, he knows he caused me pain. He hates that. However our marriage is strong. His dressing is non existant/low key.

Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 14:14

Agreed. Why don't we teach children this? Everyone should know it before they're considered ready for the adult world.

'How I want to live my life' most emphatically does not involve lying back and submitting to any shit these days. 'What I want to do with my life' is a much harder question, but 'live it with integrity' is definitely in there.

So yesterday I had a short, honest chat with the ex about boundary pushing.

I started off by telling him "Remember when you said you like X? You need to know that simply raising the possibility of X functions to create pressure in my mind."

He had not realised this. And why would he? So few people have any real clue of the effects trauma has.

I asked him if he remembered what I'd said afterwards. "That you were okay with it as an occasional thing?" he said. Um, no. "I said it didn't do anything for me at all. It wasn't possible for me to be any more explicit at the time, but this was the clearest indication I could give you that I didn't like it and didn't want to do it. I was actually quite badly triggered by it, and trying to hide that from you was quite the headfuck. And then you did it again. Twice."

He apologised, said he hadn't realised - and yes, I believe his apology is sincere and he truly didn't realise. But what sort of a world raises men to not be able to interpret "Yeah, not massively keen on this, didn't do anything for me" as a green light to do it again? And how the hell do they get to the point of thinking a sex act is okay when their partner is getting nothing out of it? It's reducing the partner to a prop.

And then he said it won't happen again.

"No, it won't. Because you'll never be in a position to do it again, because I cannot take that chance. But I'm telling you this anyway so that, in future, you cannot use ignorance as a defence to minimise and excuse a lack of consideration and empathy."

I feel better for having said it, though doubtless many would tell me he's a lost cause and there's no point. There's a point for any future partners of his, though. For their sake he needs to know that women are conditioned in so many ways to not be able to give a clear and explicit no.

And it's got me a step further down the path of understanding that trying to like a particular act while ignoring that it's triggering is a Very Bad Idea, because while you can train yourself to tolerate and find some enjoyment in the act, it's still going to be triggering, and the cognitive dissonance isn't worth it.

Which translates to: I'll never suck a dick again. That's my boundary and I'm owning it and sticking to it and fuck anyone who says it's prudish or weird.

That was quite cathartic.

Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 14:21

Crossposted with you, Phantom.

Ex freely admits it's a sex thing too. It saddens me that one day we're going to have enough raw data to be able to say for certain whether openly admitting that it's a fetish acts as a prophylactic against flipping into a Stunning and Brave mentality. But I think it will turn out to be a factor.

I couldn't live with it forever even as just a sex thing though. Because he was honest about its roots and development. And when you know someone's in the habit of wanking over the association between sexualised performance of femininity and humiliation/degradation... it's kind of hard to see them in the same way. And it's very very hard to feel like you're an equal and respected partner instead of a prop.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 14:52

His dressing is non existant/low key.

For now.

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socialworker222 · 01/09/2019 14:54

Really interesting list Tinsel.
My ex did weird stuff with our home desktop computer, installing different software for undetectable Googling. When he left I found it out including a weird USB stick. I'm not very tech-savvy but it felt such a betrayal.
For months I'd go into our spare room and hear the click of the mouse as he changed screen.
No guessing whether he had a former life in I.T.... Smile
Interestingly I've always felt (as did my furious ex in-laws) that I bailed at stage 0 on your list, but in fact I bailed at stage 6 which is what he announced with very little run-up.
So maybe I'm not such a terrible wife Grin
We often get women on here wondering whether 'dressing' will just stay at 'dressing' which they can tolerate because of the kids etc. I count myself lucky to have bailed immediately, despite the trauma of it all.
I was lucky enough not to have to tolerate the misogyny of it all and I'm yet another spouse who wore Doc Martens and put out the bins. It's very weird...

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 14:56

That's my boundary and I'm owning it and sticking to it and fuck anyone who says it's prudish or weird.

Excellent! Have a boundary badge! 🌟

(Still trying to make this badge thing take off Grin)

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Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 15:09

I suspect a day is coming when I will have so many of these badges that I'll never be able to find a willing male sexual partner again. I just can't bring myself to see that as a downside any more.

I think ex intuitively understands that I would view step 6 as a declaration of war. As I'm the primary carer of his child, he does not want to risk that.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 15:21

I'm yet another spouse who wore Doc Martens and put out the bins.

You shall know us by our boundary badges (which will look like Sheriff's badges IRL), and our sensible shoes. (Uggs in my case).

I only started the list from the point where, as Phantom said he needed more "space". There were several other preliminary stages.

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Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 15:44

What were the preliminary stages? I need to know so I can compare them to my life and feel alarmed.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 16:22

What were the preliminary stages?

It was just endless variations of "I won't do it again", then doing it again. Then us coming to a compromise about new acceptable parameters, then that being broken, etc etc.

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socialworker222 · 01/09/2019 16:43

Tyro it seems a familiar pattern; I had discussions about acceptable behaviour in the family home and got agreement; almost immediately broken. I could list the things I negotiated where boundaries were breached. So agree with Tinsel that the question for unhappy women in these relationships is not about what the man does, but what is tolerable... hence we welcome women who are immediate-runners like me, right through to women who are staying, out of guilt, feeling it models caring behaviour to children, financial/childcare/housing need, or who are staying and crossing their fingers that agreed boundaries will be respected. It's about what the woman feels is acceptable and fair; we all have our own limits.

TinselAngel · 01/09/2019 16:56

The other day somebody on Spinster (yes women can be twats too!) felt the need to tell me that they would be straight out if ever their partner tried any of that nonsense. I had to explain it doesn't work like that, it's an escalation, and would she say that to a woman whose partner had hit them?Hmm

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Tyrotoxicity · 01/09/2019 18:00

Ah - yeah, I used to have endless shit like that with ex. Not related to sex or dressing or anything, just general day to day house and life stuff. Couldn't tolerate it. Managed it to a degree by being exceptionally blunt, which led to some improvement in problem areas, but the awareness that I would have to keep doing this forever was soul-destroying.

Ended up not so much couldn't tolerate as wouldn't tolerate. He could so easily interpret just how forthright and uncompromising I was forced to be as abusive. I hated having to treat another human being like that, but nothing else had worked, nothing I said or did seemed to get through to him that he needed to actually change his behaviour. And believe me, I tried all sorts of constructive communication.

Eventually realised that his behaviour, which he seemingly couldn't change, had pushed me into a corner where my only choice was between taking on a dominating and controlling role for life, or kicking him out to demonstrate that I wasn't kidding when I said there was a limit to how long I'd put up with his inadequate attempts to be a decent human being.

He was so surprised when I finally told him to gtfo. I'm afraid my response to that was pretty blunt too.

AloneLonelyLoner · 02/09/2019 19:12

I salute you @BoudiccaMarley and word vomit and thoughts and all solidarity is an amazing thing thank you @Tyrotoxicity , @TinselAngel .

I've been quietly sobbing at work. Reading articles and then wondering whether I'm a narcissist and then remembering that no, I'm not. Being here help.

I joined Spinster last week, but haven't posted.

TinselAngel · 02/09/2019 19:18

wondering whether I'm a narcissist

Who the what now? Shock

I'm guessing narcissists never worry about whether they're narcissists or not. It's highly unlikely that you're one, Alone

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Tyrotoxicity · 02/09/2019 20:01

I'm with Tinsel on this one, "am I a narcissist?" is clearly a catch-22 type thing. The fact of your worrying is evidence you're probably not.

I'm not an expert but so far as I understand it, narcissism involves various normal human traits, ramped up to eleven, to devastating effect. Much more likely is you've just got the self-awareness to recognise those normal-level traits in yourself. Which is a good thing; too many people in the world are terrible at it.

AloneLonelyLoner · 02/09/2019 21:53

Thanks @Tyrotoxicity and @TinselAngel , I did wonder this. Would I be asking myself these questions if I had all the crazy narcissistic traits to essentially make it 'all about me' I was reading an article on Medium about a woman married to a narc. Now my ex was very clearly a narc, a transitioning asshole of a narc. Which is basically narc def con 1 or something, but the more I read the more I worried that in some way I had started being similar. Hard to explain. I need to think more. Ponder. Here's the article.....

blog.usejournal.com/i-was-married-to-a-narcissist-for-12-years-and-i-had-no-idea-3398b7b15c45

Tyrotoxicity · 02/09/2019 22:18

Your behaviour will have been conditioned in response to his, though. The bits of yourself that worry you, were they an issue before him? Have they been since, or with other people?

It sounds a bit like what I was saying about mine earlier (yesterday?). There are aspects of the way I've treated him and spoken to him that I'm not proud of - but it's been in response to his intractable behaviour. I'm not like that with anyone else.

Anyway, I confess my instinctive thought when you said you were worried, Alone, was "but that would mean two narcs in a relationship together and surely this would result in an explosion that would take out half the solar system?" Which is probably better expressed as: if you actually were a narcissist he probably wouldn't have wanted to be with you in the first place because it'd make you harder to dominate.

socialworker222 · 02/09/2019 22:45

Blimey Alone that 'Discard Phase' in the article really resonates for women used by men to have the wife and kids, before late transitioning. The description of being used, and of the total loss of interest... As the focus stays resolutely on themselves. The needing to preen and be seen and be more important and priority than the wife or kids... Late-transitioning men all the way. Hideous. I guess the author isn't out of the woods yet but I do wonder how long it takes to get over...

Toomanytears · 03/09/2019 08:50

Hello, I wanted to check back in. I keep reading this thread but have had nothing to add. 'D'h is struggling with depression, anxiety and OCD. I, as mentioned up thread by a few pp, am sure that he is absolutely sure that he is working to overcome his need to CD but I've read enough to realise he'd be a modern miracle if he succeeded!

For reasons I'm not going to cover, I will be staying in this marriage for another 6 months. I had originally said 12 and I'm half way there. I feel permanently angry and I'm struggling to deal with it. I don't think the DC have been particularly affected as I'm trying very hard to make sure they are not, but I know their summer holidays probably haven't been as good as previous ones and I have definitely, irrationally, lost my temper a few times. I just can't cope with the idea that he has lied to me and 'stolen' 20 years. I'm angry that I will have to bring the children up by myself. There's lots of things I'm angry about.

He doesn't know that I'm leaving. He thinks I'm here as a loving and supportive wife. He talks about our future, when the DC have left home and we can go away together and it's just awful. I don't want any of this. I'm sorry. I'm just having a shit time right now, with no one I can really talk to and I knew you lovely ladies would understand.

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