Transsexual women face erasure

[joannegosling2]

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

I don’t think you’ve got too much to worry about when it comes to facing Erasure. They’re looking a bit paunchy, and I reckon you could take ‘em

I loved Erasure. Ship of fools was the best song but everything they released was pretty good. Vince Clarke is such an amazing song writer. Everything he touched back then turned to gold.

Ok. It was late, I'm going to assume alcohol was involved and perhaps just a smat of frustration.

So...

Women can always tell. There have been a few times I've looked at photos of prominent TW who've undergone extensive FFS and have thought, "actually, I'm not sure I would realise they were trans if I saw them..." then i see a video of them; i hear them speak; I see them move and I realise, immediately, that I'd recognise them every time. And I do.

I've seen countless TW in the women's loos (for example) over the yrs. I was one of those who thought nothing of it - esp as they were conservatively dressed, washed their hands, queued politely, applied their lipstick, exchanged a smile if our eyes met... but I always recognised them as male.

I've never personally felt threatened and I had never even considered the implications of a male being in a female safe space (despite suffering violence at the hands of men many times) because I believed those people who I saw were, at least, emulating what it is to be female; a woman.

You've the TRAs to thank for the fact I no longer feel that way. Not feminists.

Like others, I wonder if you have been this angrily vocal within the trans community that is creating this? It is they who threaten your 'existence' (as you put it) not the women who have finally said, "that's all I can stands, I can't stand no more."

Women on here have consistently said that this current aggressive agenda puts genuine transsexuals (or truscum as the TRAs would have it) at risk and that it is you who would be thrown under the bus along with women if this continued.

Did you say that? Did you get angry with the men who pushed for this? Did you challenge a TW who threatened women?

Did you?

Excellent rebuttal @Hamster00 especially with a hangover

I don't believe for one second that the OP will be back.

Sisters, remember that the Equality Act Exceptions give each of us the legal right to exclude men, regardless of how they present themselves, from all single sex spaces, services etc.

See Schedule 3, Part 7: Separate, single and concessionary services, etc

section 26: Separate services for the sexes

section 27: Single-sex services

section 28: Gender reassignment

28 (1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2) The matters are—

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

See also the Explanatory Notes: paras 729 - 740

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

I came home quite drunk, last night, read this and was going to reply, but thought I’d better wait until I sobered up because I’d probably get banned.

Everyone else has said pretty much what I think, only with less swear words than I would have used.

The comparison to racial apartheid shoes the racism that seems to go hand in hand with misogyny. What is it about white males who hate women, that seems to give them the idea that they can use black people’s histories as a weapon against women?

Btw, mate, when toilets, changing rooms, etc were finally opened to ALL women, was there an increase in sexual harassment, assaults, up skirting, etc? No there was not. Because women are women, regardless of colour, religion, background, build, height, etc. That’s the huge gaping chasm between using race and sex as a comparison.

Now I’m off to have a drink of water and two paracetamol, as I have a headache. I shared a bottle of wine and had a couple of spirits with a male friend, but he’s as happy as a lark, with no hangover because he can drink more than me. Biology innit.

What is meant by accepted?

Clearly we accept that the op exists or we would be writing.

Involved? well you are involved, we are replying to the op

Included? Trusted? Loved?
Going with that broader definition>

I never felt that women as a group accepted me. I never found that men as a group accepted me either. I think it’s kind of odd to think that anyone will accept anyone else just because of existence or sex.

Your actions and morals determine which groups of people you willing more easily belong to.

Women can always tell.

This.

I was woken up on flight earlier this week by a TW (MTF) member of cabin crew to remove my headphones. I knew before I opened my eyes.

I knew because of the 5 rapid pats of the side of my elbow, taps in quick machine gun like succession. Entitled, impatient tapping. Women don’t do that.

I didn’t need to see the big feet with muddy heels. I didn’t need to see their height, their Adam’s apple, their shoulders or their shape. I knew.

We can always tell

Some women don't care that you are there
Some women are afraid to tell you to leave
Some women are too polite to tell you to leave
Some women haven't looked at who else is there and haven't noticed you

Whatever the reason we all act as if we haven't noticed, or we pretend to welcome you because that's women being nice

When we see you we always know

I’m out walking my sisters dog, she’s afraid of men. Boys up to puberty she’s fine with. Loves women & girls. We meet a trans woman on our walks. The dog goes ballistic.

I don’t think the OP will be back, but I think this is worth explicating.

and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any)

There seems to be some idea amongst men, that male privilege is something handed to you, and some men miss out.

But male privilege accrues to your existence, because of who and what you are.

I’m a white woman. I experience privilege because of that, even if I never attempt to exercise it. I don’t, for example, get followed around in shops by sales clerks; I am not refused taxi rides or a drink in a bar. I might be the preferred candidate for a job, not because I’m better, but because I have pale skin and an Ango Saxon name.

In my experience, men who claim a lack of male privilege are not comparing themselves to those who have less privilege, but to other men who have more. They believe they have been cheated of Masters of the Universe status and anything less is a lack of privilege.

Of course it’s more complicated than that; class, wealth; job, family and ethnicity govern how we experience life.

None of that negates the reality of male privilege. For example, the OP appearing on a forum full of women, to tell us that our boundaries and concerns are of no importance.

Also - nice rebuttal Hamster00.

Women can always tell.

Yes.

You don't 'pass'. None of you 'pass'. Some women have politely ignored you in our spaces. Some women have quietly waited until you were gone to access our spaces. But you don't 'pass'.

Laughing at Lizzie and her you could take 'em : paunchy Erasure!

Sigh.

I don't wish harm on anybody trans. We never have done. We acknowledge your existence, we always have done.

I don't believe that you were born in the wrong body, nor that a mental condition is best treated with radical physical surgery, a lifetime of experimental drugs and telling the rest of society to believe a lie. That doesn't mean I don't have huge empathy and sympathy for you. I want you to be safe, well and happy. Gender norms hurt me and they hurt you.

Not knowing what privilege is doesn't make you exempt from benefiting from it. You having been accused of benefiting from it and not having bothered to learn what it is makes me do face, as does the nod towards women not liking you very much when you were living as a male.

You still seem to want to use women's spaces to validate your identity. Maybe I used to be not bothered about that. I feel sorry for you that TRAs ruined that for you but I'm not going back. Furthermore you are a biologically male person who doesn't seem to like women very much. You're proving exactly why I don't want you in women's only spaces. You feel like a threat. The wolf telling the lamb he isn't a threat doesn't work out well for the lamb, so excuse me while I dont believe you on that score.

I absolutely acknowledge that you exist, so don't accuse me of erasure. I will call you by your preferred pronouns. I will respect your right to dress as you wish, that's no business of mine. I respect your right to have surgery and take drugs even though I'm saddened and upset that you feel the need to. I just won't tolerate you in women's spaces any more. Too much women's safety is at risk. I'm sorry.

Some women have quietly waited until you were gone to access our spaces.

That hadn't registered with me until now .

See OP, ANOTHER example of women putting themselves out, making allowances and being too nice. I'm guessing that won't hold any sway though...

What Arnold said.
You don’t pass, unless you photoshop shop the hell out of your online image. In real life women can always tell & our politeness is being stretched to breaking point.

Ah, I see we've gone serious on OP overnight. So...

... to all those saying they have sympathy: NO. No, no, no and no again.

OP has spent, apparently, 30 years colonising another group, its spaces and it rights perfectly happily and without so much as a by your leave. Now another group has decided to colonise OP's group, OP has the absolute brass neck to come here and scream blue murder about it. Either colonisation is fine and dandy or it's not.

OP wants it both ways. Nope, nope, nopetty nope.

The only person OP has to blame for OP's current predicament is OPself. And. I. Don't. Care. All my fucks are used on women and girls.

Also: well done Hamster.

oops! posted on the wrong thread! Sorry! :) Too many interesting threads today! I'll have it deleted and reposted.

Lang - Now another group has decided to colonise OP's group, OP has the absolute brass neck to come here and scream blue murder about it.

Yet again you've summed it up perfectly. The entitlement and "poor me" attitude of that post is astounding (and that's leaving out the misogyny and casual racism). It really makes me angry seeing crap like this.

The GRA came about because of campaigning by people like Stephen Whittle (transsexual) and Christine Burns (transsexual) of Press for Change. They are also campaigning for the GRA reforms. Maybe take up your grievances with them.

I think there is an issue here in the belief that if you are transsexual you are automatically not misogynistic.

There seems to be this idea that if you are living your life 'as a woman' this means you automatically understand the problems in life that biological women face. And you automatically share their concerns. And it seems to neglect the idea that many woman transitionning from female to male are doing to for reasons which almost take on a 'if you can't beat them, join them, attitude to misogyny in order to try and escape it themselves.

I think we need to break this myth because it's very clear that many of the 'nice transsexuals' may think that, but when it comes under scrutiny the idea doesn't hold water.

I think that's possibly a hard thing for transsexuals to adjust to. This has stemmed from deciding that the way to deal with dysphoria is essentially to indulge it, rather than tackle the underlying causes as we would with other body dismorphia conditions.

I think it's easy to see why this has been an ideologically driven decision rather than an evidence based one.

In a sense every transsexual has almost been a victim of that ideology and the neglect of the medical profession for not looking at the ethics involved from the very start.

The complication rate, the desistance rate and effectiveness long term are not properly talked about never mind studied. Transsexuals were laboratory rats.

I feel sympathy for that. It comes down to being sold a falsehood and lie that transsexuals were in the wrong body. They never were. They were merely the victims of misogyny in their own way, because they were never allowed to simply be feminine men by society.

I do feel that some transsexuals have been and continue to be amongst some of the biggest cheerleaders for misogyny. Who thought womanhood was performance art? All you had to do was change your voice, mannerisms and clothes and act out stereotypes of what woman are supposed to be.

No one put a section in the GRC procedures about sex based discrimination and its impact on society, its psychological and practical impact and make it a test which anyone getting a GRC had to give reasonable thought to and pass a test about, in the same way you might have to take a citizenship test.

Indeed it's hard to argue that the whole GRA isn't misogynistic to its core and somehow gives legitimacy to misogynistic views in the transsexual community.

I feel for transsexuals for this reason, who are only now being asked to confront this in themselves and to face up to the idea that you can't just perform being a woman and that the legal fiction of a GRC is just that, a fiction.

Transsexuals will always be the sex they were born. No matter what they do. It is an inescapable truth wrapped up in material reality. It's obviously deeply painful and distressing, and worthy of being taken seriously and of compassion.

But ultimately this material reality is not the fault of women and blaming women for misogynisty they don't believe in and aren't enforcer of is unfair.

Look to those who sold the lie.

They’d be far more convincing if they tried to emulate the learned behaviours of women; the behaviour that we are conditioned into as the designated carers of humankind: unselfishness, kindness, putting others first, support of the oppressed, caring, compassion, motherliness

This is a really interesting point. I remember a high profile TW, possibly Blaire White or Paris Lees saying that women needed to be more assertive, they felt women let people walk all over them. It hadn't occurred to them that overcoming a lifetime of socialisation isn't that easy. Also, they had zero interest in taking on that aspect of femininity.

Yet another person who blames biological women. We should all clearly get back in our box and shut up!

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now.

Know this, pal.

I catch you using a female only space with my daughter or me in it and I'll be treating the situation exactly as it is - a male person breaching our intimate sex-based boundaries.

Stay away from women and girls.

Also, I don't care which part of your anatomy you had surgery on, it makes you no more like me, like her, like a female than any man.

Learn to accept women and girls saying no to you. We're getting louder and braver.

You've had a jolly good run. 30 years of innumerable instances of women hiding in locked cubicles until you've gone, of girls avoiding certain places because that's where that person was, of mothers telling their daughters not to use those facilities alone, ever.

Don't kid yourself that some honour system once existed. You never even thought about girls who couldn't consent, or women who didn't but were too scared to confront or challenge you.
And you've just demonstrated perfectly your entitled narcissism when you ARE confronted with explicit boundaries and a denial of consent for you to breach them.
You respond with extreme anger that female people dare to deny male people access to them.

There was never an honour system.
There was only a reticence or fear by some woman to dare to say no to you.

We've found our voices.

So, no.

That hadn't registered with me until now

I cannot be the only female that has heard a male voice/walk/piss in the toilets and waited quietly in the cubicle until all signs of the male had gone.

I say signs deliberately. We pick up on the signs.

I can't believe that hadn't registered before.