Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
2BthatUnnoticed · 22/08/2019 15:33

By the way, Detroit’s comment that got deleted, was one saying she felt gaslighted (no 3 on my list).

Detroit hope things are going well and you’ll be settled somewhere soon Smile

2BthatUnnoticed · 22/08/2019 15:36

X-post - thanks Jo.. i was quite taken in, glad you investigated Smile

Grimbles · 22/08/2019 15:39

Wouldn't surprise me if that account was a multi-use account, except one of them got the username wrong...

ErrolTheDragon · 22/08/2019 15:51

Wouldn't surprise me if that account was a multi-use account, except one of them got the username wrong...

If it had been the same account but different NNs, that would have been apparent to MNHQ.

Whether the second instance was completely bogus or that the OP had set up more than one account for some reason, we have no way of knowing. Either way I'd assume MNHQ have shut it down.

AllNaturalWoman · 22/08/2019 15:55

Shame the second 'joannegosling' post was removed rather than being tagged as not the original poster. It's good for those new to this site to see the unvarnished nastiness of some of the trans supporter posts

RuffleCrow · 22/08/2019 16:02

I think the TRAs have done us all a favour in highlighting the absurdity of the hitherto unexamined idea that human beings can change sex.

Bring down the whole flimsy house of cards. Be as feminine and surgically altered as you like- it won't undo millions of years of mammalian evolution. Pronouns belong to the person using them, not the person being addressed. I've been 'sir' a fair few times and I'm still breathing. Hmm

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 22/08/2019 16:02

@AllNaturalWoman

seeing your name made me think of this ... enjoy, sisters!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 22/08/2019 16:14

Careful - your ego and misogyny is showing. You essentially took a big dump in the middle of the forum then ran off - not answering any questions that were posed to you.*

Then you come back, gloat, and scream "look at me!", "look at me!" like a petulant child.

It's ok though, the grown-ups had an interesting discussion while you were away

Excellent spot on post hamster

AllNaturalWoman · 22/08/2019 16:16

SheWhoMustBeSilent I hadn't made the conscious connection although (the Great) Anthea Franklin is my favourite artist. What a woman, she achieved so much despite the dual oppression due to her race and due to her female biology. And that oppression is so very very obvious to anyone who reads about her personal life.

It's been a little while since I watched that clip thank-you Flowers

AllNaturalWoman · 22/08/2019 16:18

The Great Aretha Franklin

I swear autocorrect on this site has a different algorithm to others

Ereshkigal · 22/08/2019 16:52

This is their reaction to women’s concerns - taking delight in how powerful it makes them feel, enjoying the fearful reaction they cause.

Most of us here know that is a motivation for many I think, but it's helpful when they are so straightforwardly honest about it!

Ereshkigal · 22/08/2019 17:02

Even the men who say they are interested, and write reams of what other men consider insightful philosophical treatises, seem incredibly superficial and limited in their thinking.
^^
I used to think it was me when I asked the 'is it me or is it them' question, until I noticed most men do not ask themselves that question.

YY, exactly. And they have no conception of how limited that thinking is, because no one expects them to think that.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 22/08/2019 17:03

taking delight in how powerful it makes them feel, enjoying the fearful reaction they cause.

This is the essence of the predator.

RedToothBrush · 22/08/2019 17:11

Bullies just got to bully I guess

Why is it taken like this when a debate is produced?

Bespin made a comment that I found intreging in how it used certain words and language to form an idea and a belief.

It was said to try and get us to understand and that's what I tried to do, but just found it completely contridictary and just reinforced gender stereotypes and authoritarian behaviour rather than have a mentality of accepting people for what they are.

I find it quite offensive to be told its bullying to be raising concerns about this logic and how it affects others. If anything it demonstrates the point I'm making.

I am not allowed to explain my lived experience. I'm not allowed to describe how I identity. I am not able to relate to others because that was forcefully taken away from me by language and emotional blackmail. And then I was made to feel guilty for having any kind of feeling about this other than outright joy.

This gatekeeping of who is allowed to have feelings and who is not, is really important to observe especially if those gatekeepers are either male or privileged women. Of course you will encounter problems if that happens because its imposing will on others rather than cooperating and exploring and sharing feelings and lived experiences as equals who respect others.

The 'be nice' stuff only works if you start from a level playing field. In practice, this just isn't happening and it's far from a level playing field.

It's crucial we acknowledge the differences between women, where there is great inequality and a deficit of power. There's a huge difference between a celebrity or politician and a single mother struggling on benefits from an abusive background.

If there isn't mutual respect and willingness to listen then of course women are going to push back and saying 'hang on a second, why are we letting ourselves be walked all over here?'

That's not bullying to point out a reasoning to transition which has a negative impact on women. That's women explaining why that ideology harms them. Why should they stay silence about that? Why shouldn't they point out the weaknesses and contradictions like they are able to about any other political issue?

And I note this has become a political issue of TRAs making as they have deliberately tried to demedicialise being trans and promoted identity politics as being something that should be supported as a black and white blunt instrument with no nuance under acceptance without exception. Unless its inconvenient and someone is suddenly called not true trans because they didn't read the script and agenda plan.

It's utterly tiresome.

If you want to be equal to women then mean it. That means listening and respecting them. Not throwing toys out the pram when they say, 'errrr that's not very fair now is it'?

That's the massive contridication. When you challenge behaviour not identity, its identity that gets thrown back in your face.

Being treated as equals includes someone having the ability and freedom to tell you to wind your neck in for being unreasonable as they would to anyone else.

You don't get a free pass and the excuse to call everyone bullies when you hear something that you don't agree with.

Debate is about allowing different opinions. That's what freedom is founded on. Even if those opinions might be hard or you don't agree with.

BickerinBrattle · 22/08/2019 17:11

There’s nothing more male than acting out male supremacy. TW “misgender” themselves with every word and gesture.

LangCleg · 22/08/2019 17:14

I have made contact with Detroit who would like to express how much the support and sisterhood extended to her here has meant to her.

DESPITE the actions of some.

LangCleg · 22/08/2019 17:15

There’s nothing more male than acting out male supremacy. TW “misgender” themselves with every word and gesture.

THIS.

RedToothBrush · 22/08/2019 17:32

How can a movement be 'of the left' or 'be liberal' if it can not see inequality and seeks to silence that point it out?

OldCrone · 22/08/2019 17:35

It was said to try and get us to understand and that's what I tried to do, but just found it completely contridictary and just reinforced gender stereotypes and authoritarian behaviour rather than have a mentality of accepting people for what they are.

I don't think we can actually have a dialogue with people who have taken extreme steps to alter their appearance to try to appear like the opposite sex. People who have done this can't go back, they can't afford to have doubts. This is why they accuse us of bullying. We are suggesting that the extreme measures they have taken might not have been the best course of action. They have to keep trying to convince themselves that what they have done was the right thing to do, and pushing any doubts out of their minds.

I admit that I do feel sorry for people who have made irreversible decisions like this and feel some sort of regret. But they shouldn't be promoting the path they took to young, vulnerable people and encouraging them to make the same mistakes.

I don't understand why people who are unhappy with society's expectations of them feel the need to change themselves to fit those expectations. Why not try to change society to be more accepting of diversity?

ThePurported · 22/08/2019 17:37

Men telling women that they are better at womaning than some other men and will therefore continue to piss where they want

In the same thread, a woman who has suffered as a consequence of the colonisation of women's spaces is censored

This site is starting to look a bit anti women.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 22/08/2019 18:29

I don't think we can actually have a dialogue with people who have taken extreme steps to alter their appearance to try to appear like the opposite sex. People who have done this can't go back, they can't afford to have doubts.

And yet, some "fully-modified" autogynephiles accept and acknowledge their autogynephilia and know they always were, are and always will be men, as do homosexual transsexuals.

It is, perhaps, only those who remain in denial of their AGP who have such difficulty?

Transsexual women face erasure
Datun · 22/08/2019 18:54

They don't envy women's bodies tho. They envy the impossible beach-body-ready women's body beloved of capitalism and porn.

And they don't envy women's social role either. The facilitator, dinner cooker, party arranger. They envy the girl-ad, the gorgeously put together, sassy blonde, manufactured woman from ... ads and romcoms.

Blanchard gets the men - no doubt. What he doesn't get, is the women.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 22/08/2019 19:17

TW “misgender” themselves with every word and gesture.

Every post they make.

pombear · 22/08/2019 19:40

Lang please pass on Flowers to Detroit. I'm sure lots of us are thinking about her.

I've reflected on my own recent deletions on this thread and a recent one a week or so ago.

The deletions have been very specific.

They've been when I've questioned specific significant safeguarding issues, or another poster's understanding of safeguarding.

On this thread, it was a specific question about a previous post's implication that transwomen were the ones who got to decide where the boundaries were in what was appropriate and reasonable when working with 'vulnerable girls'.

( I know it's subjective, but I can't see where asking those questions become 'bullying' rather than 'questioning'

unless bullying = asking a question that someone else doesn't like Which is a bit concerning, particularly when the discussion is about support for children.)

It's fascinating why those particular posts were targeted.

Certainly seeing a trend.
(Awaits similar deletion for pointing out the trend!)

AllNaturalWoman · 22/08/2019 19:56

Pombear that is a chillingly trend for targeting messages and the deletions being agreed to

Swipe left for the next trending thread