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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
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testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 08:03

See this is the problem I have. I can accept you describing yourself as a transwoman because you have transitioned to appear as a woman.

But when you say you are a woman I find it insulting because it just isn't true.

I accept that this will probably get deleted but I can't understand where or when it was agreed that woman just means human. Woman is a physical thing, not a feeling, however strongly felt.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 08:03

Teaandcrisps

have you posted on the wrong thread.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 08:04

I don’t think anyone would be at all annoyed if trans activist groups respected the right of female shelters to exist Smile

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/08/2019 08:05

Or cricket.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 08:07

testing987654321
see I would say trans woman, both parts are equally importent to me. I will use that in a context where it will not cause me to be discriminated against or put at risk. I would use woman in situations were it would be problematic to say trans or where there is no option to say trans. we live in a binary world and there are at the moment two options.

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 08:09

But when you say you are a woman I find it insulting because it just isn't true.

And appropriates and obfuscates language, which makes communication nigh on impossible.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 08:09

2BthatUnnoticed

no not at all as long as people also respected the right of services to open there service to all woman should they feel the need for it. the law protects services that wish to be single sex for justifiable reasons.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 08:11

But when you say you are a woman I find it insulting because it just isn't true.

to you it does not to others it does and is true to them. are they wrong do they not have the right also to beleive that?

Bespin · 21/08/2019 08:13

in all the point scoring every time you post a signed letter we post one with 10 times as many names. in the end it should it just come down to numbers who as the most on there side and what they beleive is right? I don't think there is a simple answer to any of these questions, I also don't think there are sides but I'm often forced onto one.

testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 08:20

I don't believe anyone really believes transwomen are actually women, despite how frequently it's repeated.

I would use woman in situations were it would be problematic to say trans or where there is no option to say trans.

That doesn't explain why you put me too under the statement about just being a woman. You are using your own words here and are in no danger whatsoever.

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 08:25

testing exactly.

Bespin ...,
in the end it should it just come down to numbers who as the most on there side and what they beleive is right?

Hahahah you are kidding right?
Even if that wasn't the worst idea ever, I actually don't think the 'side' you'd want to 'win' would 'win'

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 08:28

in the end it should it just come down to numbers who as the most on there side and what they beleive is right?

No - for a start, good legislation cannot be made out of words which lack a definition. A woman is defined in law - as an adult human female - but you want it changed to "anyone who says they're a woman". That sort of thinking is what allows "Jessica" Yaniv to run riot around the Human Rights courts in Canada.

Plus, if you're talking about numbers - the majority of people seem to be accepting of transexuals with gender dysphoria - but balk at legislation which allows male bodied people, with intact penises, in women's toilets, prisons, hospital wards etc.

For most people in the UK - this topic isn't even on their radar - it's only because of the Herculean efforts of women, prepared to speak out, that this is being talked about at all. "No debate" remember?

Until there is a debate - and when people understand that this legislation starts with gender dysphoric living more comfortable lives - but ends with Karen White in the women's toilets with their teenage daughters - then they change their minds.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 08:35

I believe trans people should have equal rights and opportunity to everyone else. I don’t think anyone on MN would say otherwise.

I was born and raised female and have experienced oppression directly as a result (eg following an unplanned pregnancy).

Based on that, I believe women who want and need certain female-only spaces and services should have them.

TRAs who cannot respect those women, do not see us as people, but only as tools for validating their identity. Good tools (“c*s” women) validate their identity while tools (the rest of us) don’t (hence rats nailed to doors etc).

Lamahaha · 21/08/2019 08:39

And appropriates and obfuscates language, which makes communication nigh on impossible.

This. Words have definitions because that's how we communicate. The more specific the definition, the more precise, the more articulate we can be when we communicate. It's said that the Inuits have (some enormous number) words for the one word "snow".

We have separate words for the separate colours. When you say you have a green dress, I can visualise it. When you say the dress is emerald green, it's even more specific. But if green just becomes "any colour", langauge jyust becomes vague and boring.

The word "woman" has had a specific meaning, in every language, since the start of humanity. It is essential that we know the difference between men and women for a myriad of reasons. The difference is important and has nothing whatsoever to what you or anyone else feels. It's not a feeling. It's anatomy.

If you expand the word "woman" to include people with male anatomy no matter how well they pass the word "woman" loses meaning and we can no longer communicate.

You cannot change this basic fact through your unspecific, unverifiable feeling of being a woman. This cannot and will not happen. At the moment the woke agenda seems to be winning but it can't and won't. The word is not going to evaporate. We will always defend it.

Even toddlers, even dogs, know the difference, and it's in the body.
You can feel as you want and I will respect you for yourself; but don't call yourself a woman. Call yourself a transwoman, as that's what, according to what you've written here, you are. This is reality, Bespin. You will never be happy until you accept reality. You can never be a woman. Not ever. You will never be acknowledged as a woman by other women, no matter how much you want this and insist to us that you are one of us.
We will accept and respect you as a transwoman, but not as a woman. I'm sorry, but that's just how it it.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 08:40

that should be ... “while bad* tools, don’t.” Faulty, bad tool Wink you see

Lamahaha · 21/08/2019 08:40

It's embarrassing that I even have to make such obvious points. A year ago, before I peaked, I would have been astounded that anyone did not understand what a woman is!

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/08/2019 09:00

The only ‘rights’ missing (in the uk) seems to be the right to have access to woman sex only spaces, shortlists and sports.

Women sex have the right to have these things and not to have men sex crowbarred in on some ridiculous sidestep of the rules.

God help us if we end up like Canada - where a 14 year old woman child sex has been court-ordered to receive not only puberty blockers but T, as she has - at this tender age - decided that she is a he. Parents are distraught.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 21/08/2019 09:04

But when you say you are a woman I find it insulting because it just isn't true.

to you it does not to others it does and is true to them. are they wrong do they not have the right also to beleive that?

Why don't these men just be honest about their autogynephilia?|

What is so hard about saying "I am an autogynephilic man"?

Datun · 21/08/2019 09:07

Bespin

I'm not sure you realise how the things you say contradict everything else you say.

I'm still a woman. I don't identify with being a woman, I just am.

me too,

Whatever you say you are here ^, it's not a woman, because you also say:

I don't expect you to get it anymore than you would expect me to get you.

Making a point of showing that we and you are completely different.

Responding in an antagonistic manner to someone's held point of view and attempting to discredit them is not acting in good faith.

Using a veiled hint of threat to make women be quiet. Again, putting us on two sides of a divide.

though I do conform to some gendered presentations I do subvert some gender roles.

I'm assuming this means that you act in a way that men act, and you deem it subverting female gender roles. You're using the contradiction in what you say is real, and what is real, in order to try and uphold your argument.

if we didn't focus on all the put downs and point scoring maybe could have a conversation where these things were addressed and one day people might stop long enough to do so.

Imagining that women trying to access a female only place after they've been attacked by a man, is pointscoring, it is further evidence of the divide. Imagining that women's fear and outrage that they are being usurped in sport, in politics, and their children being damaged is a 'put down' is absurd. And further evidence of whatever you say you identify as, you have no hope ever of identifying with.

I had to fight with my department to make them aware that for some young girls they would not want to work with me

More contradictions. Women don't have to fight with their department if they imagine young girls don't want to be around women.

see I would say trans woman, both parts are equally importent to me. I will use that in a context where it will not cause me to be discriminated against or put at risk. I would use woman in situations were it would be problematic to say trans or where there is no option to say trans.

The oppressed sex can't dip in and out of their oppression. This foot in both camps, according to what suits you, shows exactly what side of the divide you are on.

You talk about a collaborative debate, without pointscoring. I'd have more respect for you if you acknowledged your position in it. As it is, I have none.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/08/2019 09:34

The widely circulated of a photo of the (bearded) male person gloating in the woman’s refuge. Were they in danger - had they been attacked - were they in fear or men? Were they even asked to demonstrate that they needed a refuge? I suspect not - it’s free pass these days - and it is damaging transsexuals place in society.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 21/08/2019 09:39

I believe trans people should have equal rights and opportunity to everyone else. I don’t think anyone on MN would say otherwise.

Absolutely. Men who identify as transwomen should have the same rights as all other men. No more & no less.

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 09:49

Datun bloody hell - applause Brew

Sorry no clappy hands - since twitter they give me the rage. I dunno why, but they remind me of smug, bombastic men for some reason...

sackrifice · 21/08/2019 09:59

see I would say trans woman, both parts are equally importent to me. I will use that in a context where it will not cause me to be discriminated against or put at risk. I would use woman in situations were it would be problematic to say trans or where there is no option to say trans.

So you admit you are:
Men for the benefits
Women for the access
Trans for the oppression

Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 10:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 10:48

I called dozens of shelters. Rural ones did not have the legal and advocacy services I desperately need, and also said trans women were technically welcome, whilst they may be currently not using the shelter.

I'm going to have to go a ways further to get services I need and female only shelter.