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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

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2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 05:58

Glad you came back Detroit.

Women who centre their own experiences and needs are often called “antagonistic” (although ideally not on a feminist board).

We are socialised from birth to defer, apologise and put our needs last - even whilst living in temporary accommodation without our own bathroom. While our brothers were socialised from birth in the opposite direction.

Empathy is like skiing. Those who learned it from birth, from before they could walk or talk, will be on a different planet from adult learners.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 06:40

Bespin would you support a 2-stream approach:

(a) single sex shelters for women who need them.

(b) single gender shelters for transwomen and (self-ID) c*swomen - who tend not to want sex segregation.

If TW are provided for alongside CW, both have their needs met and are validated, no?

Then a separate shelter - can be single sex, providing for a different vulnerable population.

(Actually I did a thread on this the other day, I might @ you in it to avoid derailing this one Smile)

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 06:51

I'm allowed to be upset at men in women's spaces. My feelings are valid.

Totally Flowers or maybe Brew would be more welcome.

I’m also happy you came back. The thread took a really heartening turn yesterday and I’d hate for you to feel you had to lose this space now.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 06:57

Detroit

my post was just after yours it was not a, direct responce to you, but the 2-3 pages since I left. I don't feel you attacked me at all I'm sorry you felt that, you have the right to feel how you feel.

2BthatUnnoticed

in reality this is often the case though probably not initially if a service is open to all woman, a person would need to request that provision was made. But I know services who are mindful of this and the equality act allows for it.

Lamahaha · 21/08/2019 07:02

My gender doesn’t match my sex because gender is a set of arbitrary rules designed to keep women subordinate. I don’t identify with that at all.

As a child, I refused to play with dolls. I played with animals, read books, wanted adventures. Today I would have been classified as transgender.
As a teenager I felt the full force of my SEX as boys wanted to sleep with me, and I didn't want to sleep with them. I was deeply in love with one boy who pestered me for sex which I didn't want to give, and he left me. Another boy I loved, had sex with me but also with lots of other girls and I would wait for him and wait and wait and he'd come or not come, just to have sex, and eventually dumped me.
I wanted to be appreciated as a person, with thoughs and ideas. I did not have this great hormonlal upheavel I hear talked about all the time. I wanted to be loved, but no boy loved me.
That's the first time I really noticed the huge gap between being a gorl/woman and boy/man. We girls weren't lusting for sex; we were being lusted after. We were human beings, not just bodies, but our bodies were prey. We had to fend off straying hands and fight to keep our pants on, sometimes literally. It was a different age, back then; girls didn't give in that easily. But many of us did give in. This was because of our bodies, our female bodies. It had nothing to do with gender. And once we did give in (as most of us eventually did) we were called sluts and rejected, never loved.

bespin, I had a hard time as a young person and I DID feel a huge weight in my being, something I didn't uderstand and couldn't put my finger on.

I found a solution that has lasted me all of 45 years and has only made me stronger and more resilient and much happier. It has nothing whatsoever to do with gender. I don't believe in gender at all. It has to do with something that is beyond gender, but I won't go into it here and as I doubt other MNers would follow, and I don't tend to talk about it. I will only say that it does have to do with soul, which I prefer to call spirit, an identity which is truly gender free. It has brought me great happiness and strength but it is personal and private.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:08

I found a solution that has lasted me all of 45 years and has only made me stronger and more resilient and much happier

I'm glad you found your path in life, that's all we can ever ask for. I also found mine after a number of false trails, it's often one I wish I didn't have to have taken but the other path at the time was a dead end so when you only have one path open to you, you take it. I can not change who I am or how I got here but simply make the best of the path I was given.

Lamahaha · 21/08/2019 07:13

^ Miscalculated; actually it has been 50 years.

I am now 67 going on 68.
Apart from sitting down to pee, I live just the way any human being would live. I've never worn make up, loathe high heels, wear neutral, comfortable clothes, preferably trousers; go to the hairdresser maybe once a year.

I'm still a woman. I don't identify with being a woman, I just am. My body dictates my sex. I live in a female body, therefor I am a woman, regadless of the things I do or don't do.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:16

I'm still a woman. I don't identify with being a woman, I just am.

me too,

though I do conform to some gendered presentations I do subvert some gender roles.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 07:21

Only those who are born female are women. Facts can't just be subverted like that.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 07:22

Anyone saying anything else just sounds like Shon Faye having an "I'm a woman because I say I am" tantrum on twitter, I'm afraid.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:24

zebrasdontwearbras

how do you know your a woman, if you are one?

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 07:29

bespin it’s not effective though. Some women (including with children) self-exclude because they cannot cope.

Surviving and escaping male violence often leaves women’s self worth decimated. They cannot assert their case, so just quietly leave.

This is why proper separate provision is desperately needed imo. We are losing women who truly need support.

testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 07:31

My body dictates my sex. I live in a female body, therefor I am a woman,

Me too. And anyone who can't honestly say "me too" to this isn't a woman.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:33

2BthatUnnoticed

I genuinely think this is true and something that does need addressing. when I worked with vunrable girls at one point I had to fight with my department to make them aware that for some young girls they would not want to work with me and that was ok and that they would be better allocated to someone else.

if we didn't focus on all the put downs and point scoring maybe could have a conversation where these things were addressed and one day people might stop long enough to do so.

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 07:39

when I worked with vunrable girls

What’s a ‘girl’?

maybe could have a conversation where these things were addressed

Maybe if we had a common language and not one that was being appropriated and bastardised then this would be possible.

Words matter.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:43

What’s a ‘girl’?

The English word girl first appeared during the Middle Ages between 1250 and 1300 CE and came from the Anglo-Saxon word gerle (also spelled girle or gurle). ... Girl has meant any young unmarried woman since about 1530.

testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 07:46

So given that you put "me too" under a woman stating she was a woman I assume you also think you were a girl? That wouldn't be true either.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:47

I assume you also think you were a girl?

then you would be wrong.

testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 07:49

So you know you weren't a girl but you believe you are a woman. When the definition you use of girl is "young unmarried woman".

How does that work?

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 07:49

Girl has meant any young unmarried woman since about 1530.

Cheers for the google history, very interesting. As testing comments you also said you were a woman, so what does ‘girl’ mean in 2019?

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 07:55

bespin well there is no point scoring on the other thread (it has Solutions in the title and on front page currently) so feel free to add to that, if so inclined. I’ll leave it there on this thread to avoid derailing.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:55

GirlDownUnder

it's ok you appeared to not want to look it up yourself so I was helping.

How does that work?

I'm transgendered, at a certain point I worked out what was wrong and corrected it. at the time I related to the girls around me in a number of ways far more than the boys I had to try to relate to or get a good kicking called names. it didn't make me a girl at the time, you I would have been far happier to have been, I have a drawing I did young of me as a girl and told my family that was who I was. it didn't go down well at the time.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:57

2BthatUnnoticed

I know sometimes people actually talk to each other on here and we sometimes come to agreementsx much to the annoyance of some posters on mumsnet.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 07:58

600 posts from a flouncing poster who never came back lol

Teaandcrisps · 21/08/2019 08:02

Oh and of course this has to relate to the Civil Rights Movement. Ridiculous. Go and school yourself you twit.

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