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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
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Datun · 21/08/2019 10:53

So you admit you are:
Men for the benefits
Women for the access
Trans for the oppression

Transparent, innit.

And benefiting from all three identifies.

And guess what, bespin, no-one on the feminist board is remotely surprised.

Joisanofthedales · 21/08/2019 11:06

When I read Detroit's post I feel like crying and raging all at the same time. I feel so impotent to help her.
When I read Bespin's, often unpunctuated, posts I just feel like the world's gone mad and I have to walk around to cool off so can continue to read the thread.

birdsdestiny · 21/08/2019 11:14

Bespin , I need to ask what you meant by your 'we have the numbers' post. Was that in reference to sex segregated spaces, are you saying those spaces should not exist because some people say it's ok?
I am trying not to get cross because I think I may have misunderstood what you meant.

Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 11:22

I'm a tough old girl, I can cope for now, Joisan. I'm beginning to form a plan to get to some help so I can try and make a life.

I know one thing. It ain't trans women facing erasure. Oh, and that ole hoss there doesn't have a clue about the reality of being a woman.

Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 11:24

Birds, see you are trying to give Bespin The benefit of the doubt. You are doubting your gut feeling. Bespin doesn't have that problem...

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 11:27

I'm transgendered, at a certain point I worked out what was wrong and corrected it. at the time I related to the girls around me in a number of ways far more than the boys I had to try to relate to or get a good kicking called names.

bespin I'm trying to work out what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that being transgender is somehow related to which sex your friends are?

Joisanofthedales · 21/08/2019 11:33

Detroit Flowers

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 21/08/2019 11:53

When I read Detroit's post I feel like crying and raging all at the same time. I feel so impotent to help her.

When I read Bespin's, often unpunctuated, posts I just feel like the world's gone mad and I have to walk around to cool off so can continue to read the thread.

Yes .. and I know which one of these is my sister for whom I am here. Hi @Detroit68 Smile

Barracker · 21/08/2019 11:55

Sunk cost.
It's pointless, demonstrating with clarity as so many articulate women have done here, that there is no such thing as internal gender identity. That noone changes sex. That woman isn't a feeling, a goal, an aspiration, a performance. Trying to convince someone who has already stepped too far is futile. It's too late for them.

If a man already bought the lie, was vulnerable and suggestible and has already damaged his body irrevocably on a piecrust promise that this would make him a woman, a transwoman, a trans woman, a female, a transfemale, a femme?
It's too late.
Sunk cost.

He must convince himself that it was worth it. That some people agree with him, at least. The alternative is too awful. That he bought a lie, made a mistake, can't take it back, and now fewer and fewer people are pretending convincingly enough.

There are some men who've been through that process and arrived at that realisation.
But it must be much more tempting to cling to the façade.

To skate past the circular, magical nonsense of defending internal gender which 'if you don't feel it, it means it definitely matches your sex, only true believers have it revealed to them, like the holy spirit, but it's indescribable, inexplicable, without characteristics, and yet
definitely either matches your ovaries or your testicles'

I know we post for the lurkers.

But here's the thing I believe.
That piecrust promise is drawing more and more suggestible people into that snake oil world. And this is why I don't call men transwomen, or even trans, if I can help it.
Not because I'm harsh or abrasive.
But because I think it acts to lure an unending stream of vulnerable people towards an idea that hurts them.
Noone actually is trans. It's a misnomer.
We are all just our own sex, from birth to death and until we are dust.

I think every hint we give a vulnerable person that, ok, he might 'be trans', as if there literally is a state in which one's mind IS 'opposite', across from, one's sex, we are baiting a hook.
When we say, ok, I'll say you are a 'transwoman', we bait a hook.
We're saying, ok, I'll pretend ...this much... for you. I'll let you use a version of a female word which will validate your belief that you are sort of femaleish. I'll use that for you.
We're baiting a hook.
And people bite.
They cling onto that hope. Some sort of woman.

And it's enough, this baited hook that society validates to greater or lesser degrees that a person can 'transition', with words, with documents, with validation, with surgery, with hormones. The push might be dysphoria. But the pull is us. Any and all potential validation of any degree by society. Any degree.

That's why I tread as carefully as I can not to validate with carefully chosen language any aspect of a completely false belief.
Noone is trans. Noone is a transwoman.
These are misnomers we use, we who know noone changes from male to female, man to woman. We're using these words, although we know they're not right. But they're validation, a promise of pretence, that create a pull, a promised destination, where people will agree you've arrived.

If there was no pull, none at all, would so many transition? If you knew that all your efforts would change nothing, and you would be considered male, a man still by everyone, would you be as tempted? If absolutely no validation was forthcoming, no special words, no hints of prefix-womanness, or yes-you-transitioned, or your-special-trans-status? Would so many thousands be willing to put themselves through this only for society to truthfully say, but you're still exactly the same ordinary man you always were, only you've hurt yourself?

If the pull - from us - wasn't there any more, would as many people keep doing this to themselves?

I do not want to bait the hook.

Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 11:57

Hi, She! Sorry for disappearing. Got spooked by men.

Xx

EmpressLesbianInChair · 21/08/2019 12:03
Detroit68 · 21/08/2019 12:05

Barracker, what a generously kind, gentle, compassionate post!

Flowers
testing987654321 · 21/08/2019 12:06

Barracker you have to be one of the most logical thinking rational people on here. I feel a bit silly for falling into the 'okay I will call you a transwoman' thing again.

You are absolutely right.

Just one thing - how do you respond to people who do have gender dysphoria. What kind of language can we use to accept this condition (which I do believe some people have) and support people to learn to live in their own skin more comfortably?

I mean I am fully on board with people presenting in a way they feel comfortable with, provided they realise that their sex hasn't changed.

birdsdestiny · 21/08/2019 12:06

Brilliant post barracker.
You are right Detroit, I frequently don't post some of the things I am thinking as I think they could be hurtful. But as Barracker has so eloquently said, we cause more hurt to women by not saying these things.

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 12:07

Brilliant post Barracker.

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 12:16

He must convince himself that it was worth it. That some people agree with him, at least. The alternative is too awful. That he bought a lie, made a mistake, can't take it back, and now fewer and fewer people are pretending convincingly enough.

What worries me is that with the exponential increase in numbers of people transitioning, particularly children, it is getting harder and harder to point out this lie. Which of us wants to point out to a young person that they have wrecked their body and have destroyed their fertility and their chance of a normal sex life in pursuit of this impossible dream of changing sex? And that what they have ended up with is a mutilated body which is a poor facsimile of the opposite sex. And that they will be reliant on medication that continues to destroy their health for their whole life. Medication that continues to destroy their health

Pointing out the lie starts to look more and more like an attack on the individuals who are falling for it.

littlbrowndog · 21/08/2019 12:17

Yes barracker. I guess last night I was trying to understand from bespin why would bespin feel that being seen as a woman was so much better that being a man

Because The only thing that connects me to all other women is my biology
Not an inate feeling or a sense or that gender identity thing , I just am a woman because of my biology
So I couldn’t be a man because of my biology

Datun · 21/08/2019 12:21

Fantastic Barracker.

I have never yet read anything by you without feeling a profound sense of relief.

Your ability to communicate is unsurpassed in this business. And, more than anything, demonstrates the crucial necessity for correct, unfettered, unafraid language.

Noone is trans. Noone is a transwoman.
These are misnomers we use, we who know noone changes from male to female, man to woman. We're using these words, although we know they're not right.

This is right. We shouldn't even be having the conversation.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 21/08/2019 12:23

Glad to see you here, @Detroit68 ... hope you feel a bit safer now.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 21/08/2019 12:26

@Barracker

Brava! And, thank you.

[Perhaps you should copy & paste that as an essay for publication elsewhere too?]

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 21/08/2019 12:28

Pointing out the lie starts to look more and more like an attack on the individuals who are falling for it.

Perhaps, when we do this, we make it clear that we refer to those who are encouraging / promoting the lie?

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 21/08/2019 12:28

Which of us wants to point out to a young person that they have wrecked their body and have destroyed their fertility and their chance of a normal sex life in pursuit of this impossible dream of changing sex?

Not pointing it out is why so many young people are sucked in. We may not want to point out the lie to the already irreparably damaged but at some point we have to, as a society, to save the thousands that come behind them.

We, as a society, should never have colluded in the lie to start with, it was wrong. We mustn't confound the wrong.

littlbrowndog · 21/08/2019 12:30

But here we are datun

When a man can play cricket in a weekend on the men’s team and the women’s team.

Ans so so many other things like that

It’s so unbelievable. Image 10 years ago somebody had said kids will be taking untested drugs. Girls would be having mastectomies, men were woman of the year , men and boys were beating girls and women in sport and the endless list
No body would have believed it yet here we are

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 12:37

SheWhoMust and Arnold I agree with both of you, but I think it is getting harder and harder in practice as the numbers increase. I also think transgenderism in children has been deliberately promoted by autogynephilic middle-aged men in order to make it harder for those of us who are concerned about the whole ideology to speak out.

Saying it's difficult to speak out is not the same as saying we shouldn't do it.

Datun · 21/08/2019 12:37

No body would have believed it yet here we are

i agree littlbrowndog

But I honestly believe it can't sustain itself. There are too many lies. The pushback from women has resulted in a doubling down from TRAs. But the proliferation of this nonsense, resulting from that doubling down, is reaching more and more people.

It will collapse. It's built on lies. Lies that are being disproven.

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