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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
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testing987654321 · 20/08/2019 23:51

I don't buy this idea that there is this thing called gender identity which is imperceptible to those of us who think our body defines our sex but apparently we definitely have one. How can anyone else say I have got something that I can't perceive?

PencilsInSpace · 20/08/2019 23:51

imagine living with the breaks on all your life or having a rock weighing you down and you not being able to deal with stuff becuse the rock is always in the way that's what it feels like knowing something is wrong and not dealing with it.

This is just gender, not gender dysphoria (although obviously it is shit). This is what gender is and why it boils women's piss.

Big fat no to any laws which protect this oppression as an identity.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 00:00

Right Pencils - bespin, you're asking women to "identify" with their own oppression, with our own societally prescribed gender roles - or not to call ourselves women.

Someone asked testing's question on twitter - to be answered "well, you'd be classed as non-binary then" - how can that be right? A biological woman told she can't call herself a woman, because she doesn't feel a "gender identity" ?

You're asking us to allow our biological reality - our very womanhood - to be overwritten in law by your feelings.

And that's a "NO WAY" from me.

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 00:01

this is the whole reason you don't and can not get this because when they match you don't even know it's there. imagine if they didnt match. imagine your body felt wrong to you that how. you saw yourself didn't match how the world saw you or interacted with you on ever occasion. what do you think the outcome of that would be.?

What is it that is supposed to match? I was told as a child that there were things I shouldn't do because I was a girl (not by my parents, but by some teachers and other adults). I ignored them and did the things I wanted to. If my 'gender' matched my sex, are you saying that I should have been happy to have been told that there were things I shouldn't do because I was a girl, and that I wouldn't have wanted to do them anyway? Since that wasn't the case, does that mean that my 'gender' doesn't 'match' my sex?

This is what 'gender' is to me. A set of rules made up to oppress women, and keep us 'in our place'. But they also oppress men - particularly those men who want to do things that are coded 'female' or 'feminine'.

OldCrone · 21/08/2019 00:04

Someone asked testing's question on twitter - to be answered "well, you'd be classed as non-binary then" - how can that be right? A biological woman told she can't call herself a woman, because she doesn't feel a "gender identity" ?

So men can self-identify as women, and they are women if they say they are, but women who don't have a gender identity, like most of us, are not women, we're non-binary, a label that is imposed on us whether we like it or not.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 00:08

Oldcrone - according to twitter TRA, for biological women to call themselves women, they have to identify with femininity, it seems.

Yet, at the same time men are telling us they can present as male, with beards, and whatnot - remain biologically male, and still be called women! And yet, they don't get feminist's frustration here?!

Feminists battle society's constructed gender roles, based on our sex. Transactivism reinforces it.

sackrifice · 21/08/2019 00:12

society up until very recently in the west only allowed for two options based on sex. other cultures for 100s of years have acknowledged that gender is far greater than that. I feel we are often quite behind in our understanding of this.

What society doesn't categorise males and females but legislates on feeling male or female?

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2019 00:20

Genderists can identify as they like.

Non-Genderists are heretics. Who should be burnt at the stake or force to convert.

I don't think it's just about silencing women. Women are simply more likely to be non conforming to gender stereotypes and therefore heretics. Feminine men don't exist to be erased to the same degree in the first place. Most of those there were, are now the genderists already anyway.

PencilsInSpace · 21/08/2019 00:32

society up until very recently in the west only allowed for two options based on sex. other cultures for 100s of years have acknowledged that gender is far greater than that. I feel we are often quite behind in our understanding of this.

Congratulations on your sudden and rapid improvement on spelling and grammar, bespin. It's quite remarkable Star

GirlDownUnder · 21/08/2019 00:40

Is Bespin not posting in good faith?

Well, I’m shocked.

Datun · 21/08/2019 00:49

Leaving the fetish aside, it seems as though people, perhaps like bespin, want to act a certain way, but society doesn't like it. So they say they are women, then act that way, and society says ah, ok.

Call it effeminate, feminine, whatever. It's not about an inner 'gender identity'. It's about wanting to act a certain way, because it feels natural. Like some people are exuberant say. Or quiet. And to act the opposite is wearing and difficult and feels like a lie.

It's not at all difficult to understand. And they could absolutely be accepted as 'trans' ie men who want to act differently to how society thinks they should. And be accepted.

Because they are not acting like women. They're not waving their ovaries around. Not being talked over in meetings. Or being treated as relatively unimportant facilitators for men.

They need to say they're trans if society (mostly men, because patriarchy), doesn't like men being feminine, but not say they're women. Because a) they're not and b) they never act like actual women.

It's definitely about the way a transwoman wants to be treated because of the way they behave.

If they just left off the 'because we're women' part, we'd be in the same ballpark.

That doesn't account for the rabid transactivism tho. Perhaps that's just down to men's outrage at being thwarted by erstwhile unimportant, male facilitators.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 00:52

I look very feminine - very very feminine., in fact. That's genetics. Plus I do shave my legs and stuff. Well, in summer, anyway. That doesn't mean I like pink, or baking, or knitting, or wearing makeup. I do the latter, but I hate baking. It doesn't mean I can't do maths, or that maths is a "male brain" thing. Whether we like pink or blue, football or netball, maths or baking, myself, and my daughter, are female.

In short, bespin, present how you like - I don't care. But women and girls deserve a space away from biological males, no matter how they identify.

Because women and girls, regardless of their mythical "gender identity" -regardless of how feminine they look, or whether they have long hair or short hair - are massively more likely to be sexually assaulted and can be impregnated by the biological sex class male.

And now it's not just post-op transexuals. Now, males with penises are claiming to be women - males with the very bodily organ that is responsible for the rape of women, that impregnates women - are claiming to be women and making claim to our female spaces, where we may expect privacy and be vulnerable.

So, OP and bespin, take this up with the people who are telling us penises can be female. They can't.

PencilsInSpace · 21/08/2019 00:53

I don't buy this idea that there is this thing called gender identity which is imperceptible to those of us who think our body defines our sex but apparently we definitely have one. How can anyone else say I have got something that I can't perceive?

Having a gender identity is like having a soul. If that belief brings comfort, meaning and wellbeing to individuals then I won't get in the way - until the point where it infringes on my rights and wellbeing.

I'm happy for people who believe they have a soul to enjoy the full protection of discrimination law but that doesn't mean that I have to agree that they have a soul, or that I have a soul, or that souls are a thing that should be protected in law.

RedToothBrush · 21/08/2019 00:54

That doesn't account for the rabid transactivism tho. Perhaps that's just down to men's outrage at being thwarted by erstwhile unimportant, male facilitators.

It's just pure sexism.

Men who still want to assert their dominance over women, but don't have that stature in society so look for other ways to enforce it rather than earn it.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 01:01

Men's rights activism took a swerve, that's all. And somehow, has gained traction. We now have to believe a penis can be female. Well, bollocks to that. Oppression has been replaced by colonisation.

Like I said - OP, bespin - take it up with the TRAs, with Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns who have pushed these laws through, and who are pressing for self ID. They're the ones who have overplayed their hand and caused this backlash by women who want, who need to protect their sex based rights.

Datun · 21/08/2019 01:15

They're the ones who have overplayed their hand and caused this backlash by women who want, who need to protect their sex based rights.

And I can remember the women on here predicting it. At least 5 years ago. 'Backlash' was the very word used.

zebrasdontwearbras · 21/08/2019 01:24

Women talked, nobody listened, but they're all ears when males who say they're women want legislation changed.

2BthatUnnoticed · 21/08/2019 01:28

Detroit if you see this 💚💜

Hope you are able to come back in time (if you want to). You have support here, even if just words on a screen 💚💜

lionheart · 21/08/2019 01:39

Love that Joni pic and the discussion. Smile

Detroitin1968 · 21/08/2019 03:06

Sorry Sisters, its Detroit...I decided I needed a more secure email.

The whole threat of doxxing thing on spinster scared me. Men scare me.

Bespin you cannot possibly understand that combination of do as I say, or suffer the consequences, alongside the desire to put others first.

You did not experience girlhood. You did not survive that conditioning into adulthood. And in adulthood you are not programmed to take the smallest portion, to put yourself last, to prioritize everyone else. Till the last drop of you is screaming for relief, for refuge.

And then you find fucking men. Functioning dicks in your refuge.

And my response?

FEAR.

Whilst the Anchorage development is promising, nothing will change on the ground.

Last night I had to use the bathroom late at night. My flashlight was dead. I didn't step down a safe lit inside corridor. I stumbled scared by animal noises into a camp bathroom. And cried.

But as long as you center yourself, your needs. Men's needs. That's alright then.

That's what it means to be a woman.

Bespin · 21/08/2019 04:21

hi Americans
I have answered questions in good faith because people want a dialogue and to understand others point of view. I don't expect you to get it anymore than you would expect me to get you.
Responding in an antagonistic manner to someone's held point of view and attempting to discredit them is not acting in good faith.

Detroitin1968 · 21/08/2019 04:53

I'm allowed to be upset at men in women's spaces. My feelings are valid.

Detroitin1968 · 21/08/2019 04:55

I don't have to be nice.

I don't have to center men and their desires.

I'm not antagonistic. I'm wondering why I'm having to camp while dicks sleep in womens shelters.

Answers? Or just attacks?

Detroitin1968 · 21/08/2019 04:58

My biological reality trump's your point of fucking view

FWRLurker · 21/08/2019 05:18

Detroit, it has to get better for us soon over here.

I wonder if a smaller shelter group in a nearby rural area may be a possibility for you? Orgs in smaller towns are far less likely to put the needs of confused men over those of the women they were founded to serve.

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