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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Transsexual women face erasure

999 replies

joannegosling2 · 16/08/2019 22:45

It's a fine state of affairs isn't it?

Please - before the administrators axe this post, at least hear me out.

August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by feminists, not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of feminism on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom feminists have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain feminist agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to feminist insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the feminists treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe feminists have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many feminists seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Feminists can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
OhtheHillsareAlive · 17/08/2019 15:56

Oh that reminds me, I should follow Dr Blanchard on Twitter. That explanation makes sense, and he has the broad clinical experience to speak with a certain amount of authority.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/08/2019 15:56

Yup. Agree.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 17/08/2019 15:58

That explanation makes sense, and he has the broad clinical experience to speak with a certain amount of authority.

He and Prof Michael Bailey are two of the world's leading authorities when it comes to autogynephilia. Smile

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 16:03

BrokenLogs
And don't chuck the word feminists like it's a bad thing
Replace that with women and see how it reads then

And here it is, this is an experiment to see how the context changes for the readers (women) to whom the op is referring to.

*Quote August 2019 - Transsexual women (not the self ID-seeking transgender - I refer to those of us who surgically transition lock, stock and barrel under strict medical supervision but whose narratives have been appropriated by the TG activists and advertised as their own) now being clobbered by women not only here but every where else on the internet too, whether it be on TGN or this new Spinster group I've heard about. I understand the voice of women on the latter has reached unseen heights of extremism.

In fact, if I may say, equally as extreme as the trans activists whom women have been resisting for quite some time now. But what a difference a week makes. It seems they are now mounting a full-on attack on their own allies - we transsexuals (who are no less
appalled by the behaviour of the transgenderists and feel equally threatened by them), suggesting we are exactly like those same people with no respect at all for women. AND IT IS CATCHING ON.

They insult us further by calling us men and insisting we submit to male pronouns and acknowledge the absurd assumption that we benefit from male privilege (whatever that is, I surely never realized there was any).

For the zillionth time WE are NOT the problem. This entire farce was started by the self ID demands of the TG crowd. It is true - and we recognise - that women are fighting for their rights as never before. But regrettably there are certain women
agitators who now see this as a golden opportunity to rid the streets and social life of not only
cross-dressing men who seek to enter their spaces but transsexuals too. To this end they have petitioned MPs to scrap the Gender Recognition Act which affords some legal protection to us...which by happy coincidence (though for different reasons) is exactly what their enemies demand also.

So here the two opposing sides have found common ground, and the politicians, having had the wool pulled over their eyes by the TRAs using narratives stolen from us, are joyfully legislating to bring peace and harmony to our troubled society. Cross-dressers will have their self ID on condition they respect segregated spaces and women will be safe from men in their toilets. And we will all live happily ever after.

Not so for us transsexuals. Someone somewhere has decided that we must be the sacrificial lamb to enable this to happen. We must cease to exist as a group. And not existing together with self ID being in place means it will be deemed no longer appropriate to transition via surgical means. Consequently all such treatment, once tailored purely for he needs of transsexuals, will vanish forever.

I hear women repeat over and over that they were never consulted about 'old-school' transsexuals using their spaces like we have done for years. Since in all probability many of you here weren't even born when I had my operation some 30 years ago that would have been rather difficult. And besides I don't recall being consulted about these outrageous proposals to erase me and my compatriots from society. There are certain well-known individuals on social media claiming to be transsexual but who eagerly cow to women's insistence that they be labelled men. If they are happy to be blokes, fine. But they
certainly do NOT speak for most of us. I will NOT degrade myself in that way just to please others - nor to seek validation.

Personally it matters little whether women accept me or not. They never did when I was trying my best to present myself in the male role either. That used to hurt me a lot. But now I've grown harder. If the women treat their allies worse than they do their enemies, then they do not deserve allies. Whilst still supporting women's concerns in general, transsexuals are also entitled to fight for their existence - especially in the face of so many seeking their total erasure.

I believe women have singled us out for one simple reason. Thanks to our years of serious and medicated transitioning (unlike the TG community) many of us pass so well, women cannot tell should they brush by us in their toilets. (If you have they're most probably cross-dressers). This I feel is what irks them most as it makes it near impossible to keep us out. So the fewer transsexuals enabled to transition, the less will be in their spaces.

I refuse to pay atonement for the sins of transgender activists. I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that from now on we be barred from women's toilets and hospital wards. For I can tell you it will not stop there. Next it will be parks, libraries, shopping centres and schools -
indeed any place where there are children. Apartheid sound familiar?

So know this Mumsnetters. I shall go on using women's toilets as I've done for half my life now. Not because I'm some misogynistic, foul-mouthed lager-drinking bloke who seeks to undermine or abuse women as many women seem to relish believing these days, but to
quietly assert my right to exist; you see I do it in the context of the time when black people once sat at segregated lunch counters enduring terrible abuse and violence from bigots.

Women can so do their worst. We few transsexuals who are left have nothing to lose now. Unquote*

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 16:07

Ali1cedowntherabbithole
Lovely. Smile

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/08/2019 16:08

Whats this whole ‘eight to exist’ crap? No one ever says anyone doesn’t exist. The only death threats I’ve seen is to women who don't agree with certain people.

Stating that a human cannot change sexy isn’t denial - saying that you can most delicately is though. Gender is not a scientific or factual thing either. You can exist wearing a tutu or boiler suit. It doesn’t matter.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 16:11

The right to exist is the most bizarre thing for anyone to say.
I wonder when it was first said?

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 17/08/2019 16:12

#RepealTheGRA That is the only solution, since this law is now redundant!

There is no need to continue with such a Legal Fiction.

YobaOljazUwaque · 17/08/2019 16:13

@LangCleg this is a response to something quite a while ago in the thread where you said nononononono: I think there's a difference between sympathy for those suffering crippling dysphoria that makes the sufferer feel unable to exist in their own body, and sympathy for the sad plight of not being accepted as a woman when that's what you really really want.

I do have the former variety of sympathy, not the latter, and I don't think there's anything unfeminist about that.

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 17/08/2019 16:17

I think there's a difference between sympathy for those suffering crippling dysphoria that makes the sufferer feel unable to exist in their own body, and sympathy for the sad plight of not being accepted as a woman when that's what you really really want.

It is the autogynephilia that causes the "dysphoria".

If you haven't yet done so, have a read of the middle section of this analysis of "gender dysphoria":

"Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria (Adolescent Boys and Men)"

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 16:18

According to the World Health Organisation, Gender Dysphoria is no longer classified as a mental illness.

Not sure if that was an attempt to change the treatment pathway. I suspect it was.

TinselAngel · 17/08/2019 16:18

a human cannot change sexy

Not even by putting high heels and a dress on?

Wurzelsnewhead · 17/08/2019 16:20

SingingLily - yep.
Sorry, can’t remember who pointed out Trans World Airlines but imagine the spin offs 😳

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 17/08/2019 16:26

According to the World Health Organisation, Gender Dysphoria is no longer classified as a mental illness.

It's more a political decision than a medical decision, based n pressure from lobbyists.

See also the politics underpinning the change in the DSM from "Gender Identity Disorder" to a specific chapter about "Gender Dysphoria".

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/885141?pa=zbuQD%2Bpcko3/N3HF2EljtD5aVVdeKaqdVHVNZMXC55TgWzaIgRRGCpp3HCvKu%2Bp18SIvl8zjYv73GUyW5rsbWA%3D%3D

scotsheather · 17/08/2019 16:29

Take your misogyny elsewhere mate and take your frustration out on the TRA guys, NOT women.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 16:35

It's more a political decision than a medical decision, based n pressure from lobbyists

Not surprised at all.
And then it is captured as a medical issue.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/08/2019 16:38

@TinselAngel are at my typo.

Humans can indeed change sexy - eg a gorgeous man with nice hair and smile, smelling great... tells a Bernard Manning joke and farts loudly = changing sexy (for revolting).

SheWhoMustBeSilent · 17/08/2019 16:46

And then it is captured as a medical issue.

The Trans Lobby needs to be careful for what it wishes. If "gender identity" ceases to be a "medical / psychiatric" issue there is no need for any health service to fund any treatment; especially in UK via NHS funding. If they are not physically or mentally ill why should any health service fund any treatment?

The WHO has now classified "gender dysphoria" as "sexual health". Go figure that one!

It's becoming laughable!

These autogynephilic men are really desperate to separate their obsession from paraphilia, but we all know better, don't we?

TinselAngel · 17/08/2019 16:49

Humans can indeed change sexy - eg a gorgeous man with nice hair and smile, smelling great... tells a Bernard Manning joke and farts loudly = changing sexy (for revolting).

My last boyfriend used to do this (farting not racism), and couldn't understand why it might be a turn off.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/08/2019 16:50

Spinach in the teeth also works well.

TinselAngel · 17/08/2019 16:51

As does bollock scratching.

BingBongSong · 17/08/2019 16:53

Just finished reading the thread. Nothing to add except this afternoon I am certainly enjoying my Erasure....

NellieEllie · 17/08/2019 16:55

I have always felt sympathy for those with gender dysphoria. There was a clear and lengthy route to a GRC. And, more to the point, it was rare. I also thought that as society progressed, gender stereotypes would have less meaning and fewer people would need the transition route. To me therefore, it was a non issue in terms of women’s safety. I was happy about using whatever pronouns were required, and supported the rights of people to have a birth certificate recording their perceived gender. Yes, no one can literally change sex, but it seemed a proportionate concession again, because it was rare.

Then - Self id. As far as I was concerned, this was a total game changer. The ethos pushed by TRAs presents gender transition as a lifestyle choice, relegates being a woman to - either a set of offensive stereotypes, or nothing at all (if a clearly male bearded person can be a woman). One of the things that occurred to me p, as well as the obvious concerns about women’s safety/sport/ spaces/ children etc was that this would NOT be a good thing for Transpeople either, given there would likely be a push back. I think that is a shame and I think that rational, humane Transpeople are valuable allies against TRAs and by that I mean people who recognise biological sex, and the real dangers for women of self Id.

I also think though that for the OP to say they have no idea what male privilege is - is disingenuous. As I think the TRA ideology is a prime example of it. The level of misogyny aimed at women in the name of furthering trans rights is truly startling. Sexual attacks on women and girls (even at primary age) is increasing. So is new crime like upskirting or revenge porn. Men don’t suffer that, or the threat, or the fear of it. Women are brought up within gender stereotypes imposed by parents, or schools, or peers. They are told what to wear, what not to wear. And that’s U.K. let’s not get onto global sexism, FGM, child marriage, women criminalised and punished while rapists walk free, death in childbirth, shamed by menstruation, or having no where to pee that is safe from male attack. That is male privilege. The lack of all the things that women suffer through their biology.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/08/2019 16:56

Some light relief. I was just reading an article ‘Why I 'married' an anime character’ on the BBC site. Now as queer as folk as my mum used to say.

WrathoSWhlttIeKIop · 17/08/2019 17:00

If gender identity" ceases to be a "medical / psychiatric" issue there is no need for any health service to fund any treatment

I would imagine they are hoping it will be seen as a hormone deficiency, hence why they constantly remind everyone they need to take their 'HRT' or 'T'.