Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

Fraggling

It worked like magic, though. It really did.

Apart from.all those times that woman were raped in female toilets by men.

come on lang help them out they are struggling here.

Interestingly I haven't seen a copper on the beat type policeman for about 10 years!

Little chance of the police intervening in anything round here.

That's another conversation though.

I'm loving this

Oi! You feminists! You don't think women should work in the police as they're too fragile!

Yes that sounds very likely. I get you think you're on a roll but you're edging it a bit too far now.

Do you think woman can be police officer?

because part of there daily job is to. confront groups of men.

Fraggling

you said woman should not do this, but I thi m. you ment woman in ther own, not one's who's job it is to do that. I would suggest anyone do not approach groups they don't know to correct them on there own to correct them. No matter there gender to be honest that's a really risky thing to do.

sorry the typing was crap on that one

It did work like magic.

Same as changing rooms, that sort of thing.

Men weren't supposed to be in there and I can count on fingers of one hand number of times I saw one.

Yes crime happened sometimes but much less than outside. They were a place to hide from creepy men, more than a place for creepy men to hide.

That is currently in fast reverse.

So now we have to be in our alert after dark, in Alleyways, in the woods, in the park, in the car park, etc AND in the bog. Because toilets lock and you can't see in, they are a great place to get someone. Before it was quite extreme, you'd have to get in unnoticed etc. Now it's the same as anywhere else risky, with an added locking door. Awesome.

Theres also the fact that lots of men enjoy walking the fine line between upsetting / discomfiting women, and actually doing anything illegal. Could a man have hung out at the mirrors staring at girls in the old days? No he'd get told to leave, someone get security if in a shopping centre etc. Now? It's aok. No law against staring. Or standing too close. Or pestering. Or asking personal questions. Etc.

There's no doubt that the word meets every definition of a slur. It's used negatively, and with the intent of dehumanise and belittle, often with violent and gendered language. The vitriol and hatred behind it is very clear.

That said, I think it is starting to lose its impact. It's a bit like 'feminazi' which you don't see so much anymore. Most people recognise that anyone using that word is a misogynist and that the person being called it is just a woman who knows her own mind.

It's the real reason, I think, that the TRAs tried to make 'FART' a thing instead recently. They're realizing 'terf' is starting to make them look like the type of people who use 'feminazi'.

I think my favourite feminist use of it is in the brilliant Vagina Anthem

. It's made very clear that it belongs with every other nasty misogynistic insult.

The other coercive aspect is that if you disagree with men in your space you are aterf aka bitch cunt that needs to be violently corrected.

Young women and girls do not want to be that. So they are left with little option but to allow men past their boundaries.

It's insidious.

Then you get things like cricket Australia, girl guides, etc saying that girls women are not allowed to even slightly let it be seen that they have noticed they are expected to undress in front of someone with a dick.

That's pretty appalling tbh.

do do people have an issue with trans exclusionary radical feminism. what it stands for as a label? I think twitters character count had a lot to do with it becoming the normal way of saying this as Terf.

But it's a misnomer for all the reasons given at the start of the thread.

So yes people will have a problem being called something they are not.

Eg
Feminist
Radical feminist
Excluding trans men

Fraggling

yes totally agree with that.

here's the history of the term.

theterfs.com/2013/10/11/terf-where-the-term-comes-from/

do do people have an issue with trans exclusionary radical feminism. what it stands for as a label?

Yes.
We're not 'trans exclusionary', we're generally just wanting to exclude males from spaces needed by females. Some are ok with post op transsexuals, others aren't, there's a range of opinion. I've never heard anyone wanting to exclude eg 'non binary' females who nowadays come under the trans umbrella, and few instances where TM would be excluded (athletes on T maybe - but they generally exclude themselves).

'Radical feminism' - nope. Some may be, others aren't. Most of us are just ordinary women with the capability of saying 'no' to males.

Reading / skimming through that a fair bit,

It seems that terf was invented by some radical feminists to apply to other radical feminists they didn't agree with.

Which isn't the same as the people with these beliefs (radical feminists who exclude all trans people) inventing it for themselves.

It also centres around screenshots from a fairly small number of people, and people claim to be and say all sorts of stuff on the net.

Aside from that, it's a misnomer for most people it's applued to. Why would anyone 'reclaim' something that was niche at best, seems to have been invented to 'other' some radfems from other radfems?

There are radical feminists who take extreme positions on quite a few things

Same as in all groups tbc

Difference here is that moderate people, people who aren't radical feminists, people who don't exclude anyone but are worried about impact on women and girls, etc are having this label applied.

Applying this label to anyone who disagrees with any aspect of what I would say it's an extreme position (humans can change sex on their say so) pretty much indicates its a slur.

Applying it to women but not men who say the same things makes it a misogynist slur.

Invariably coupling it with words like bitch, cunt and threats of / calls to violence makes it past a slur and into something else.

have you noticed that no one is backing you up on this one fraggling, and that never happens on here so I suspect that you might be on your own I this hole you appear to want to keep digging.

Bespin, dunno about anyone else but I'm just leaning back watching you reveal (yet again) the depths of your misogyny. It's all about the menz for you. To be fair you deserve some credit for sheer persistence, though it's not doing your cause any good.

OP: I am pretty new here, this is my second post in fact, and I'd not normally bother except that what you said was very upsetting to me, and I would like to share a personal perspective. By the way that's me in the pic in the garden this morning. Shared for a few reasons.

I had to live as a woman with man's genitalia for a year before I could get corrective surgery. I was one of the very lucky ones too as I had money to go private and was genetically blessed too - I passed easily very soon. If I were made to go into segregated changing etc... to me it just seems bizarre.

As for the threat, Trans women are on extra high doses of estrogen as well as anti testosterone medication, they are hardly a sexual predator in the making.

Moreover, as a survivor of multiple rapes, as child then many years later as an adult, that a) boys have been managing with potential predators in their toilets for years, it's the shrouds of shame-based secrecy with which we wrap our families that most often allows predation (secrets are gateways to abuse), and b) it would deny potentially very vulnerable trans woman and trans girls access to what is a much safer space; we are already at a disadvantage when thrust into the world en femme, has likely not having had the benefit of being taught to be sometimes wary of men etc when growing up. One learns swiftly.

And in case you've not been snooping your husband's web history, trans porn is the next big thing. Guys just love chicks with... well, you know. But they are still "straight" etc etc. ;) But there are not many ts about, so it is common us to get a vast excess of male attention if clocked (mostly not pleasant). It scares me to think of the girls I have helped having to use the gents.

Anyway, this is an emotive and draining topic for me, and not one I joined mumsnet to participate in. I don't plan to keep a close eye on this thread, but if anyone has questions I don't mind being messaged.

And in case you've not been snooping your husband's web history, trans porn is the next big thing. Guys just love chicks with... well, you know. But they are still "straight" etc etc. ;) But there are not many ts about, so it is common us to get a vast excess of male attention if clocked (mostly not pleasant). It scares me to think of the girls I have helped having to use the gents

Jesus wept

Any way, back to the topic

I’m not mad about TERF. It’s just a thought terminating insult now, used to dehumanise, in the same way as (say) cunt

I think whatever it was previously meant to signify, that’s it’s meaning now

It’s quite a handy indicator when someone uses it mind you

this is an emotive and draining topic for me

Whether or not "TERF" is a potentially useful term that women should reclaim? The thread topic?

your guess as to what pandemos was actually talking about is as good as mine Lang

But I felt like I wanted a shower after reading it . Why was it accompanied by a picture? Who the fuck knows?

As well as simply being used as a thoughtless insult, it's still an inaccurate term.

I would definitely be called a terf on the grounds that I don't believe you can change sex and that the word woman never includes men.

However I am not trans-exclusive in my feminism, I include women who consider themselves non-binary or as transmen. I am also not sure if my opinions count as radical or not.

On these grounds, it's not a useful term.

It’s just a hateful insult that the woke feel comfortable using

They’ll be the same sort of people who say ‘gammon’ rather than explaining what it is about someone’s opinions they disagree with

I saw Billy Bragg use the word ‘gammon’. It was a big disappointment as it made me pretty sure that he’d cheerfully call me a terf

I wish I'd read the last paragraph first then I would have known it was just someone coming to plop.

We don't need educating or to think more about things. It was educating ourselves and thinking about things that brought us here. The constant failure to understand that is astounding.