Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

Fraggling

but we were not talking about white men becuse we were talking about the n word so how would that conjure up a group of white men if we were talking about them and the n word.

Fraggling

you know it's ok to say I made a mistake can we move on, maybe Ive learned something about making assumptions about people and I will think next time about that. can we go back to terf.

As you say, my area is majority white.

I found the idea of a lone woman approaching a group of men about their language, well, very risky.

Due to my background and where I live, that was the mental image that came to mind.

The point that got me wasn't anyones race, but the idea of a woman approaching a group of men. Groups of men in my neck of the woods are usually on the piss, and spelling, not danger exactly, but caution.

My mental image was cockeyed in happy to say that.

the point that got me wasn’t anyone’s race

Then why was your direct question to me (twice) ‘Are you Black’

As tempting as it is to allow you to keep digging, I accept you reacted based on your reality and hopefully in future, you’ll try and see outside of that before reacting.

Because that would turn a risky endeavour (approaching a group of men you don't know to address their language) into a bizarre one (what has it got to do with you at all)?

have you noticed that no one is backing you up on this one fraggling, and that never happens on here so I suspect that you might be on your own I this hole you appear to want to keep digging.

Have you ever thought that people are simply giving you enough rope, Bespin?

nope, by all means enlighten us all and support frags view and points

Care to clarify what you mean by that lang?

No: that's fine. I'll just leave you to spend a page describing your understanding of women's most common reactions to groups of aggressive men and/or male youths on the street.

No I think I'm done.

Others probably don't want to get embroiled in something so off topic, either way.

It's true that my area is very white and has a fair amount of random violence so my reaction was borne of that, I can see my reaction was borne of my experience rather than properly understanding what Earltwalker was taking about (although the inital post wasn't super clear hence my imagination jumped to me approaching a group of drunk men outside the pub and having a word about their behaviour. I'm also, as you can guess, not good at de-escalating and have been attacked when trying to stop things in the past). So yes my imagination got carried away with me based in my experiences and what Earltwalker was taking about was something totally different. Will that do, to put it to bed?

Do you think racism (weather conscious or unconscious) should go unchallenged lang?

Well I dunno.

This thread is about misogyny, essentially, and the people who are keen to see women's rights done away with (and crime stats rendered meaningless, thinking about people attacking each other) don't seem to be engaging with it when called out.

Much Sadface.

Now if a woman is attacked and runs into the bogs the magical inbisible barrier stoping them following is gone.

And it was an invisible magical barrier, as very very few men would transgress it.

That's the power of socialision.

A few sort years and many gains have been made in eroding this esp amongst the young.

Good news is any women who object are terfs and therfore not worth the paper they're written on.

Actually that works doesn't it. Very nice.

Women who agree to allow men anywhere are fine.
As soon as they object they become a terf and can be ignored.

So it's literally impossible to have an actual woman object. As soon as she objects she is something else.

We've seen various people say that terfs are not 'real' women.

Which also makes sense if woman means submissive 2d set of feminine steteotypes.

I suppose the internal logic works well, it's when it intetsects with the outside world that it unravels, and that's where the conflict is. If only the outside world, which has been represented by 'terfs' (easier to id and fight than the whole rest of the world) would agree then the logic would work and everything would be good.

so lang feels that woman are fragile things that should not work in services like youth work or the police where woman clearly challenge groups of men.

again challenge does not equal confrontation if done in a way that takes the person's views into acount and seeks to examine them.

TERF is a bit like the current "Karen" thing you find all over the internet, especially reddit. It's used to belittle and silence women.

On their own, a simple acronym or woman's name shouldn't be a problem but in context they are no different to more traditional slurs like bitch, c*nt, etc.

Woman asserts her rights politely and explains reasons - woman gets told to shut up and called names, so her actual rationale can be ignored.

And it was an invisible magical barrier, as very very few men would transgress it.

people keep. saying they don't like magical thinking on here. this barrier never existed when someone wanted to cross it they did on any number of countless occasions to commit crimes against woman.

lang while you are here, you know a lot of history do you want to tell people that terf was created by GC people in the beginning. People listen to you about these things.

Bespin you again appear to be advicating that women aporiach random groups of men in the street to address their behaviour.

And that women who think this is a bad idea are 'fragile'.

I thought we'd got past all this, and you specifically said you were taking about pairs of trained women in a youth worker situation where there is presumably judgement about when to chat and when to leave alone or just say hello in passing and maybe build up to a chat down the line.

No: I'm very, very happy to watch you carry on without me, Bespin. You seem very energised today and I think best to let you get on with it. Enjoy!

You also don't seem to understand that many many men esp of the most entitled /most bravado type experience a woman not agreeing with them /challenging them /asking them not to do something /whatever as an act of aggression in and of itself.

I've been in countless situations where a response that wasn't simpering compliance was met with aggression by men.

This is hardly unusual.

Bespin you again appear to be advicating that women aporiach random groups of men in the street to address their behaviour.

yes I am advocating that woman can work as police officers, who as part of there daily jobs challenge groups of young men. So what you are saying is that woman should not work in such roles is that correct?

LangCleg

I'm sure that makes people feel supported. lol

And now you are saying that men 1o years ago felt as free to walk into the ladies as they do now?

Most still won't thank God but that will change fast.

Apart from anything else, the men if there were any would have intervened.

To say that it was strongly socialised in men not to enter women's spaces is not magical thinking it was true.

It worked like magic, though. It really did.

Bespin what are you talking about.

You are just making stuff up now.