Expelled from Girlguiding for putting safeguarding first

[KatieAlcock]

Many of you will remember that Helen Watts and another Guider were expelled from Girlguiding last year. This was me - in Sept 2018 I had my membership of Guiding withdrawn for social media breaches (one FB post in a small private group) and refusing to follow Girlguiding policies on transgender members (saying I'd put safeguarding first, ahead of any policies).
I'm a longstanding Guider and Mumsnetter (naice ham, cancel the cheque, show us the diagram) but I'm anonymous for obvious reasons, generally. I'm coming out now to tell you this story.

I appealed and the former Chief Guide who held the appeal concluded that I had not breached social media guidelines (I should jolly well hope not given that 9 people saw my post!) but that I was still refusing to follow GG policy (I gave the same statement - safeguarding comes first).

My story is in the Mail on Sunday today (if this link doesn't work I'll put a clicky link in the next post).

Mail on Sunday link

I am taking GG to court on the grounds that they have discriminated against me because of my gender critical beliefs by investigating my actions when other Guiders who complain about things are not investigated.
I am asking them for a small amount in damages because though I have not lost any income, I have lost reputation and the investigation was stressful, as you can understand.
And I've asked to be reinstated, and for a full apology and statement that I did nothing wrong.

PS... I spent an hour with their professional photographer telling me "don't smile" and they go with the photo from camp with a big grin on my face, taken by my Guide??!

[Post edited by MNHQ]

There is just as much risk as a women GG leader being a predator as there is a trans woman - by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators.

Nope, we're implying we think they are men.

This covers leaders as well though.

So how do you ensure that a trans leader is tru trans person.

Fyi ian Huntley would have passed a dbs check so ....

How do we keep the dodgy faking leaders out?

There is just as much risk as a women GG leader being a predator as there is a trans woman

No. No there is not.

There are 130 women in prison for sex crimes (and many were committed with a male accomplice).

Last year, there were 60 transwomen in prison for sex crimes.

If you compare that to the populations of women, and transwomen in this country, you'll find a huge difference in how likely it is that TW are convicted sex criminals.

Very approximately - (from memory, you'll have to do the maths yourself if you want to know exact numbers)

Something like 1 in 130,000 women in the UK are sex criminals in prison
Something like 1 in 6,000 transwomen (depending on which estimate you use. This is a generous one).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

This issue aside, GG is very careful around safeguarding and Leaders receive regular training. No Leader is assumed to be safe.

Butters, you know that Girl Guiding allows any adult male person who merely claims to identify as a woman to become a Guide Leader, right?

So a '55 year old dude who pretends to be trans' (as you say), could be a leader and take a pack of girls away overnight. And that same 55 year old dude could share accommodation and showers with the girls. Because he claims to be a woman.

That's what the new policy allows.

And the policy states that parents of the girls should not be told that the guide leader is a 55 year old dude.

by implying a trans woman can’t be a leader JUST IN CASE is essentially implying you think all trans women are predators

Nope. You don't understand basic safeguarding.

Is not letting men share prison cells with women, in case of sexual assault, saying all men are predators?

Good for you Katie. Er I may be unable to locate the relevant bit of the unmentionable site, any hints please.

Aw, butters thought better of their last posting, but I thought anyone tempted to continue wasting their time might like to consider their stated aim that they then had deleted.

Aaand moving on back to the subject at hand...
Katie will you update this thread when you hear anything (that you're allowed to share!)? Do you have a timeframe?

If I was Butters, it'd be this post I'd be deleting.

There's no way of squaring an acceptance of the reality that predatory men pretend to be trans to get access to women and girls, and demanding that transwomen are treated as women for safeguarding purposes. It's a logical impossibility.

Girls (and women), are not a collection of stereotypes. Female socialisation is something that needs to be fought. And the girl guides should be the ideal place to do it.

They should be recognising and challenging this ideology. Not bloody embracing it.

Abso-bloody-lutely, Datun.

Honestly, becoming a mother has been the most radicalising thing for me. I never appreciated Brownies as this when I was a kid. When I thought of it as a young woman thought it was old-fashioned. Now I’m a mother of DC the right age and I’m hopping fucking MAD at the idea they’d betray the ideals they espouse just so casually, and by the back door. Silencing and expelling leaders for speaking up is abominable.

(Not saying I believe in true trans myself, I think all TW should be treated as men for safeguarding, but Butters argument falls apart with that post).

If you are an organisation that has explicitly set out to challenge gender stereotypes as GG have done in the past (and currently?), why the failure to stand by your beliefs?

GG don't have to be kind to everyone - their remit is to do with girls. They are plenty of mixed sex organisations out there. If they understand why girls need their own space (and I think they did once), then stick with it. There is plenty of support for that stance.

I think it's cruel to transgirls to challenge gender stereotypes when that is their coding for being a girl. And I can well envisage a scenario where a group which contains a transgirl not going down the challenging gender expectations route to avoid difficulty so the girls miss out on valuable lessons.

And safeguarding mainly, of course, as covered by other posters.

Aaand moving on back to the subject at hand...

Ah, it's keeping the thread bumped at least. Butters has provided a good service to Katie today, keeping her thread active on the site.

Thank you Butters for helping the gender critical feminist cause today, every little helps - nice work!

Itsnotawatercat, butters has no argument. They are on the wind up, which they admitted in the post they had withdrawn. It is truly a waste of energy and posts to engage any further with their shit.

3,719 is a really nice number. Just saying...

FloralBunting yes I know. But bumping the thread brings it to the attention of more people (most will start with the OP).

And Butters' posts expose the illogicality of the trans activist arguments, also useful - well, for those who haven't heard them a zillion times!

I just want to say thank you to Katie for standing up and taking this further. I hope you're successful and I wish you well.
It's the lying and deception that really pisses me off. The complete and utter disregard for any concerns that women have.
Those on this thread that have shown their utter contempt for the safety of young girls should hang their heads in shame. They should also look at their complete disregard for the safety of any trans identifying children.
This issue is a minefield and wilfully blind people that insist that human beings can change sex are not helping at all.

It’s o k - happy to bump the post - no one takes mumsnet seriously outside of here anyway !
Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women Trans women are women

Heh. You might like to make yourself familiar with the site traffic figures.

Katie knows her stuff - when not being chucked out of Guides, she's a developmental psychologist.

Her article "Young children, reality, sex and gender" is brilliant:

medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

Bet you know who to go to when a child needs to be gestated, tho, butters.

Thank god no-one takes MN seriously, otherwise they might try to get posters banned or police the threads!

My first introduction to MN FWR was to come and ask why they were so transphobic. I did actually engage rather than sticking fingers in my ears and repeating phrases I couldn't define, but each to their own.

I think we might have rattled Butters.

They're falling back on insults and having to gain solace by repeating their mantas now, poor dear.