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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

442 replies

Doyoumind · 01/08/2019 13:21

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

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ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2019 00:35

It's not really right to be describing the mindset of other people as delusional.

How would you describe 'Believing yourself to be something you're not' ?

PetrolBastard · 02/08/2019 00:37

No, it's not quid pro quo that you get gender if you get race or age. It doesn't work like that.

PetrolBastard · 02/08/2019 00:39

I don't think anyone believes they inhabit the physical form of a woman. But they believe in their mind that they feel more comfortable with a particular gender identity. It's not for you or me to call that delusional.

OldCrone · 02/08/2019 00:39

It doesn't work like that.
Why?

ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2019 00:40

No, it's not quid pro quo that you get gender if you get race or age. It doesn't work like that.

I expect she meant sex not 'gender' ... in which case, why do you decide 'it doesn't work like that'?

OldCrone · 02/08/2019 00:40

Can I have an age identity as well?

BickerinBrattle · 02/08/2019 00:42

And still no definition of "woman."

I'm not asking what anyone's personal feeling of womanhood is or what the experience of living as a woman is. I'm sure that's different for everyone, and it's likely also different on different days for everyone. Feelings and experiences aren't definitions. Definition = the formal meaning of a word.

I'm asking, for those of you want a change in law, so that "woman" legally is defined differently than it is now, as "adult human female" -- what definition do you propose?

Transactivists propose that the definition be changed to: adult human female plus males who state they are an adult human female. If you agree with that, fine. That's all I'm asking. I don't have any ulterior motives and there's no follow-up question I'm asking. This isn't some kind of trap. I just want clarity.

If you don't want that to be the definition, and you don't want "adult human female" to be the definition because it is too restrictive, then what you do propose?

The law does have to have a definition if it is to maintain and enact legislation and regulations regarding the status of women.

PetrolBastard · 02/08/2019 00:42

You can't prove the existence of one theory by going making an argument about a completely separate issue.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2019 00:43

I don't think anyone believes they inhabit the physical form of a woman.

There are rational transwomen who know they are male.
But there are also those who forcefully insist they are female, that TW are W. That's what they say.

Doyoumind · 02/08/2019 00:46

The TW who say they aren't women have been absolutely vilified by the majority of the community they should be part of.

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OldCrone · 02/08/2019 00:46

OK, Petrol, what's special about 'gender identity' that makes it different from choosing your age or anything else? What about if I really feel that I am 25, and I like being 25, and I feel more 'comfortable' being 25? Why can I choose to be a man, but not be 25. After all I know a lot more about what it's like to be 25 than what it's like to be a man, because I was 25 once (a long time ago, but I can remember it).

PetrolBastard · 02/08/2019 00:48

I'm not getting into a discussion about why you aren't the age you are. It's not relevant.

RosesAndRaindrops · 02/08/2019 01:04

It's not really right to be describing the mindset of other people as delusional

Was thinking the same

StevieSW · 02/08/2019 01:04

As someone who happens to be a trans woman, I'm trying to work out if commenting here is basically just stupidity, in all likelihood it probably is. But at least as they say nothing ventured nothing gained or lost.
The current legal version of a woman/female is someone who is assigned it at birth or someone who has become one through the process of applying for and being granted a GRC.
With the exception of sports and marriage by a religious figure there was a time between the GRA passing and the equality act passing where trans women granted a GRC couldn't be excluded from single sex spaces. This is slightly more ambiguous now with the equality act, but exceptions has to be shown to be the least discriminatory method used, and there needing to be a clearly legitimate aim, that can't be achieved by other methods.

I think the issue with a lot of the debate that goes on at the moment is that it often tends to ignore the lived reality of the situation that's happening at the moment, most facilities/services are already inclusive of trans people, and I don't know how many people use birth certificates to access spaces rather than other forms of government ID such as such as passports and driving licenses which are a much lower bar to being able to change.

Separately with regards to the what is an essence of woman I have not a clue, I likely can't explain what makes a woman anymore than another woman can. All I can say is that being seen as, and treated as a woman in every way I possibly can be feels to be correct for me. I know that sounds a bit nebulous but I could probably write a thousand lines and it still would.

I'd also like to say that during transitioning biology changes, more than quite a few people would expect. You sweat differently, skin changes, smell changes, how hair and fingernails grow changes as you absorb and process different amnio acids slightly differently, fat and soft tissues redistribute, muscle systems, and arterial systems change.
Some things remain fixed but lots do not. I have grown breasts that are no different biologically to any other womans when for a period I was hormonally imbalanced I even lactated breast milk, as those structures exist in from birth in everyone to different developmental degrees.

Someone also brought up earlier the downsides of being a woman and I accept that there is clear sexism that exists in society and the work place, do I however wish it wasn't there yes. But would I say I experience this sexism differently from other women my guess would be in many cases no.
I think a lot of people think trans women experience it differently and I think there is some truth to that depending on trans woman but it very much comes down to the individual and their circumstances.

One of the reasons that I have this view is that since tranitioning I also happen to be a survivor of rape. It was quite patently obvious from the fact the demeanour of the man that decided to rape me changed to being disgusted half way through the act, after it became clear that I was trans, that the initial experience wasn't different because I am trans.
And I do think based on this experience it feels disingenuous when people seem to think that being trans you can't experience normal sexism. It was one thing when he was strangling me and forcing me to my knees before forcing me to perform oral sex on them while continuing to hold their hand round my throat choking me, and then something very different when he then wanted more, forced himself on top of me and realised what I was.

There was a clear devide in the behaviour when that man knew I was trans and when he didn't, and so for me for some to claim that there isn't feels as I before stated disingenuous.

OccasionalKite · 02/08/2019 01:33

Where women's rights are concerned, I wish that men would listen to women and accept that women want woman-only spaces.

RosesAndRaindrops · 02/08/2019 01:58

I wish that men would listen to women and accept that women want woman-only spaces

See, that's where the problem lies.
I'm presuming you mean biologically women only
Others don't dismiss transwomen though.

OccasionalKite · 02/08/2019 02:02

If you want to share spaces with men and transwomen, then please feel free to do so!

But please acknowledge that there are women and girls who do not want to share spaces with men.

OldCrone · 02/08/2019 02:03

What problem, roses? Are you saying there's a problem with women wanting women-only spaces?

OldCrone · 02/08/2019 02:08

All I can say is that being seen as, and treated as a woman in every way I possibly can be feels to be correct for me.

This is something that I find very odd. I feel quite uncomfortable when I'm aware that I'm being treated 'as a woman', because it usually means that people are doing something like being patronising, or they're ignoring me, or they're giving me special, 'fairer sex' treatment (implying I'm weak, or in need of special treatment), and I can't understand why anyone would seek out that sort of experience.

So when someone says that they want to be 'treated as a woman', I just ask myself why would anyone want that? I just want to be treated like a human being, which is probably more like being treated as a man.

OccasionalKite · 02/08/2019 02:13

Yes, OldCrone - me too. As a woman, cunty type, I just want to be acknowledged and treated as a human. I don't want a division to exist between the way women are treated, and the way men are treated.

RosesAndRaindrops · 02/08/2019 02:15

Why does woman mean patronise, or being ignore -if that's your definition, then fair enough but that's not the issue here.
It's the inside of a woman (Its say feeling but know how that'd go lol)

OccasionalKite · 02/08/2019 02:19

Just in case anyone is confused:

Woman = adult human female.

OldCrone · 02/08/2019 02:20

You're very lucky, roses, if you've never had the experience of being 'treated as a woman'.

RosesAndRaindrops · 02/08/2019 02:23

Nobody's confused ta

OccasionalKite · 02/08/2019 02:27

So we are all agreed, then - Woman = adult human female.