To those who visit the board and believe in gender identity, what is your solution?

[Doyoumind]

I've been on Twitter again and seen another interesting thread but I'm not going to post it here so it can be picked apart.

Instead, although I know it's been asked before, to those of you who believe someone can be a woman without biologically being one I ask the question: What do you think should be put in place in law to provide safe spaces for trans people and women and what are you doing about it?

Exactly, and i can use a chainsaw!

YES! Meaning you can use a chainsaw means you can pick up your man card!
(Or something)
As who's reverted to stereotypes here, I don't think I have)

Roses, she was replying to my post where I said using a chainsaw didn't make you a man.

If you dont want to discuss and engage why come on here? I cant see that you are helping lurkers be less GC.

Maybe if articulate posters like augustian, i think it was, engaged it would help. If mewk can engage further with more information it would be good.

I'm not primarily seeking to convert other people to my viewpoint. But certainly differing viewpoints exist and they are valid. I don't see the need to trash the person behind the viewpoints, which I am continually disappointed to see on the board.

However compare to GC women being arrested,
There's plenty of more moderate GC views out there. Which are all fine.
If you take the extreme stance (NOT all! lots are moderate) why is there a problem?
I mean, it's not transphobic to state biology is real. It is. Why does it stop someone living as a man or woman though?
I suppose it all boils down to if you have a sense of something else or not too.
If you don't, then you can't compute anything else.
Doesn't mean it's not there though.
If you take the extreme though I know it's hard as it's not always easy to see you are but there you go

roses your comments often really are obtuse

roses your comments often really are obtuse

OK.
Which one?
(aware you probably mean you don't understand any of them, but not much I can do about that if so)

RosesAndRaindrops

Mewk on the other hand might actually have something of value to say beyond feelings so I am interested in what he has to say

Beyond feelings - says a lot
Why do I repeatedly keep being asked to try and define feelings then if you don't want to hear anything beyond feelings.

For goodness sake, I didn't ask about feelings I didn't ask anything actually. You are again directing something at me with my own words to imply that what I am saying is invalid or somehow insulting. Do you think before you type? (genuine question)

And the point of this thread has nothing to do with feelings it's about how to apply language for legislature in order to properly govern spaces for women and TW. The thread is supposed to be about solutions to the divide and dilemma between biological women that want to retain their spaces and TW that want to be included in women's spaces.

Are you referring to the one at 23.16 where I quoted your 23.08 one?

Sorry cross post was to former

I dont have a problem with anyone living how they choose, as long as it doesnt impact on others - impact on others thats where the problem lies.

Im all for men expressing their "femininity" or wearing/doing stereotypically female things and vice versa. Society esp men need to be more accepting of this. I say men esp as they are the ones most likely to bully or attack both TW and TM. I dont see that as an extreme view. I dont see not wanting kids to be given powerful drugs off label extreme. I dont think not wanting children to be told their bodies are wrong is extreme.

roses I was referring to your 23:09 post, but its not the only time you seem to have picked up on half of somethong and missed the point entirely.

I dont have a problem with anyone living how they choose, as long as it doesnt impact on others - impact on others thats where the problem lies
OK, can hear that

Im all for men expressing their "femininity" or wearing/doing stereotypically female things and vice versa
Same, agree

Society esp men need to be more accepting of this. I say men esp as they are the ones most likely to bully or attack both TW and TM
Same, agree
I dont see that as an extreme view. I dont see not wanting kids to be given powerful drugs off label extreme. I dont think not wanting children to be told their bodies are wrong is extreme
Same, agree, but I differ slightly in that if a child were adamant for years that they were female when they weren't, or male when they weren't, why should we say no, you're not?
That's NOT SAYING I agree with blockers or anything when primary age/early secondary age or whatever as I don't.
If they've been adamant all through early childhood and then through teens as well is it still just a whim?

Living as a man is exactly the same as living as a woman, except men can pee standing up, and women can get pregnant. So how can a man live as a woman or vice versa?

But many posters on this board say that women have a much harder time than men. That the experience of women is completely different to the experience of men, yet here you are saying the only difference is how we per of that we can get pregnant. So, in your view, there are absolutely no other differences between men and women?

The evidence seems to suggest blockers cause more harm than good. Also that natural puberty leads to the majority desisting. So on that basis is there much harm in then waiting a bit longer until the person is an adult?

I dont think that any minor should have cosmetic surgery, so would no more approve of a natal girl having breast implants than i would a TG.

Decomposing how one chooses to live and how others treat you are very different things. I dont choose to be discriminated because of my biology doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

if a child were adamant for years that they were female when they weren't, or male when they weren't, why should we say no, you're not?

I think it depends on if they've experienced trauma as to how heavy you consider the opposite sex claim. I don't think any child ever should be allowed to transition. I think it is confusing before your brain is fully developed to attempt to take on a range of lifelong consequences some of which are irreversible. I'm not saying to not listen to children or not to give their claims weight or to not believe them when they tell you something about how they see themselves.

Weaponization of your sex against you really distorts perception of self.

Thus, if a child makes such a claim you have to dig deep and seek psychological assessment by someone that doesn't toe the gender line to ensure any co-morbidities are dealt with prior to any consideration of transition.

I think it depends on if they've experienced trauma as to how heavy you consider the opposite sex claim

What if they'd never experienced any trauma though?
But were still adamant they were the opposite sex through childhood and early teens?

But many posters on this board say that women have a much harder time than men. That the experience of women is completely different to the experience of men

What you're talking about here is the difference between the lives of men and the lives of women. This is completely different from a man choosing to 'live as a woman' or vice versa. One is based on how others treat you, the other is based on what sort of lifestyle you choose to adopt.

It's clear that women do get treated differently to men - talked over, talked down to, ignored, treated as sex objects... I don't think this is what men are aiming for when they say they want to 'live as women', because they would have to be able to influence others so that they were treated as inferior.

I think that what men mean when they say they want to live as women is they want to adopt stereotypical feminine behaviours. Do you think they mean something else? If so, what?

Good points Stop, OldCrone and FormerMediocre. Thank you for your clarity.

But were still adamant they were the opposite sex through childhood and early teens?

This would require sympathetic psychological treatment to establish why they thought this, and help them to accept reality.

It should be treated in the same way as a child who was adamant that they were anything else that they clearly were not. Believing yourself to be something you're not is normally considered to be a delusion.

What if they'd never experienced any trauma though?
But were still adamant they were the opposite sex through childhood and early teens?

Even if that is the case, although many victims of CSA dont disclose until well into adulthood, iirc longer for males, will waiting until 18 make that much difference? They should receive counselling and whatever support they need while waiting.

It's not really right to be describing the mindset of other people as delusional.

Before I go to sleep I've just popped back to say to Roses, the key LGBT groups, the majority of politicians and many media organisations and not just the trans lobby very clearly state it is transphobic to talk about biology. That's actually where we have arrived at.

Definition of delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

I'm a white woman in my 50s.

If I was convinced I was 25, would you consider that to be a delusion?
If I was convinced I was black, would you consider that to be a delusion?
If I was convinced I was a man, would you consider that to be a delusion?

Either they are all delusional beliefs, or none of them are. Which is it?