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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This is a good thread about female trans allies

999 replies

Doyoumind · 30/07/2019 16:00

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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DecomposingComposers · 31/07/2019 22:14

You can't liberate yourself from men, if you're on board with men who are deciding to access your spaces, scholarships, sports, rape refugees, prisons and definition, on the basis of how they feel.

But why does your idea of feminism only concentrate on the very tiny number of people who are trans women?

How about women who choose to deride the opinions of other women? Women who try to silence other women? Women who believe that they should be able to decide what other women can believe and talk about?

Why isn't it anti feminist to attempt to silence other women simply because they don't agree with you?

littlbrowndog · 31/07/2019 22:14

Don’t be afraid of me roses.

Datun · 31/07/2019 22:16

am I Owen Jones 🤔

It's an amazing impersonation, I have to say!

Datun · 31/07/2019 22:18

But why does your idea of feminism only concentrate on the very tiny number of people who are trans women?

It doesn't. It's liberation from men.

Cascade220 · 31/07/2019 22:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 22:20

Decomposing who is trying to silence other women? We just disagree. Saying that is similar to saying we deny tw their existence, which is also nonsense.

If anything, it's GC women who are actually being silenced.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 31/07/2019 22:20

Why isn't it anti feminist to attempt to silence other women simply because they don't agree with you?

No one is doing any silencing. Disagreement and debate is not silencing, there's pages evidencing how you're not being silenced.

It is not anti feminist to question why other women seek to further a political and legal agenda that benefits men while very seriously harming women as a sex class, particularly vulnerable women.

It's not about not respecting women's right to different beliefs, it's about standing up to women engaging in actions and agendas that harm women. Feminism is not about unconditionally accepting and affirming women however they behave and whatever they do, and you certainly aren't modelling that unconditional generosity and love to GC women as a value you believe in.

It is baffling to GC women why any women would organise to support the feelings of men over the material reality and interests of women and girls, including their own to the point of harming women as an entire biological class. But to you, to question that harm is wrong and disrespectful?

StopThePlanet · 31/07/2019 22:22

littlbrowndog

Well and rose won’t speak to me for some unknown reason 🤒

Eh, whatever they've been ignoring many well thought-out points and make sweeping generalizations so I'm over it.

But I do like tequila. To much

So back to tequila - I had a feeling that we are kindred 😉. Seriously nobody drinks tequila with me. My drinking cohorts drink vodka, booooooooring! No offense.

DecomposingComposers · 31/07/2019 22:22

It doesn't. It's liberation from men.

But you immediately went on to describe situations only relevant to the trans discussion.

And again, why do you think it isn't anti feminist to participate in belittling, mocking and attempting to silence women who hold different opinions to you?

I also find it so telling that so few posters here are willing to criticise the use of misogynistic insults simply because the person who used them was posting in support of the majority on here. Would you get into bed with anyone so long as they agree with you on the trans issue?

PetrolBastard · 31/07/2019 22:23

It's not men though, is it? It's trans women. To you there's no such thing, but to me there is. I am not oppressed by the existence of trans women.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 22:24

Again, all the lols. It's one thing to claim complete incomprehension, it's quite another thing to complain you can't read

I've done nothing of the sort.
You said it was droll when I said so you don't think women can think for themselves, then?
So I said OK, you didn't mean that then? If you didn't mean that, then all's good isn''t it as you must think that women can think for themselves, and doesn't mean they've been brainwashed into it.
So that's all good then. Women can think for themselves and you agree? All good.

NeurotrashWarrior · 31/07/2019 22:24

Absolutely doyoumind, Michelle and Spartacus.

If you cant define ignorance how do you know what it is?

DecomposingComposers · 31/07/2019 22:24

Decomposing who is trying to silence other women?

Just wait a bit longer until the recipes start getting posted.

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 22:25

No, I'm Owen Jones and I claim my £5.

Where did Bespin go? I was hoping for some conversation about cool contemporary magazines from the 1970s.

Michelleoftheresistance · 31/07/2019 22:25

Would you get into bed with anyone so long as they agree with you on the trans issue?

You're really not reading or taking in a word anyone's saying here.

Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 22:26

So obtuse they are practically a straight line.

We're not interested in discussing misogynistic insults because that's not actually what this thread was supposed to be about.

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littlbrowndog · 31/07/2019 22:26

Why would you be petrol ?

Lamahaha · 31/07/2019 22:26

You can, to a point. In so much as we've abstracted it to be a bit of paper. But can you really take a Frenchman and make him something else, or will he always, in a sense, be a Frenchman?

I can answer that, as I have changed nationality. See, I grew up in a tiny far away country nobody ever heard of, which I'll call Xland. As a young woman I married a German man and moved to Germany and after a few years got German nationality, which is of far more external value than Xland nationality. Sorry, Xland, I had to abandon you. Germany does not allow dual citizenship.

Now, the stereotype of an Xlander is just about the opposte of a German. Xlanders are, typically, friendly, happy go lucky, unpunctual, casual, not much bothered about doing things properly (you might. for instance, find a bathroom hook screwed on upside down). Not to diss Xlanders; they just don't take it all too seriously, which is probably why Xland remains one of the poorest and most backward countries on the planet.

Germans (the stereotype) are the opposite. They are obsessively punctual, meticulous, attentive to rules (ever seen a German waiting at a red pedestrian sign when there's no car in sight?) and to minute details, perfectionist in all they do, and, yes, a bit unfriendly and formal.

I had a hard time adjusting, but adjust I did. I thought some of these qualities were actually good for me as I tended to have a slapdash attitude to life, so German traits balanced me out. After more that 40 years in Germany I was an exemplary German. I knew exactly how to behave, to clean, to take care of details, to be attentive and not to dream around so much. I had a responsible job and a good pension. Hurrah! I'd made it!

That's when I'm in Germany. When I go back to Xland, I can be as dreamily casual and slapdash as I like, though I notice a small annoying tendency to view everything through German eyes, to be critical and even a bit supercilious -- uh-oh...

In the end I see both "identities" as just a collection of traits, characteristics, attributes. I can don one identity and discard it at will. I am not attached to either -- I adapt as necessary.

And yet, and yet the attributes I was socialised in, my Xland background, is the one I love more, feel closest to. The German one is like a disguise, a role I'm playing, even though those qualities are now second nature to me. And I don't feel it in any way impinges on my original Xland "identity". I'm not diminished by being German. I feel completely accepted and integrated in Germany. I don't have to have anyone validating me as either an Xlander or a German I adapt as I see fit.

I guess it all explains why I also can't take gender identity seriously. I believe that clinging obsessively to any identity, whether of gender or nationality, is harmful. It binds you down. It's all not real, just a bundle feelings and traits and characteristics, and they limit us to a very narrow path in life. It's good to let go and just BE, not be something-or-other, woman or man or German or Brit or Xlander

Germans who cling to their stereotypical traits have a horrendous time when they travel abroad to countries where it's not all planned out and meticulously clean. They are not free; they come across as pedantic old farts constantly complaining. Germans who are flexible have a good time; they can let go of their German skin and adapt. I know both types.

(But I have found a wonderful compromise through moving to Ireland. Xland friends of mine who came to visit said that Ireland is the Xland of Europe, and it's true!)

And to answer the question at the top of this post: Yes, I will always be an Xlander at heart, since Xland formed my personality. But I have some say in the matter and I am not bound by any typical Xland traits.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 22:27

No one is doing any silencing. Disagreement and debate is not silencing, there's pages evidencing how you're not being silenced.

No disagreement and debate isn't silencing, but are you missing where if you have a different viewpoint you get "all the lols" and 12 year old replies? It's a form of pile on to shut you up.

DecomposingComposers · 31/07/2019 22:27

SpartacusAutisticus

Does that also include those women some might consider to be "cow bag bitches"?

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 22:28

You're really not reading or taking in a word anyone's saying here

Again, the utter irony

Doyoumind · 31/07/2019 22:28

No one is oppressed by the -existence- of tw ffs.

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ThePurported · 31/07/2019 22:28

I find it interesting how certain posters on this thread have ignored women who share traumatic personal experiences and their reasons for being unable to welcome men into women's spaces.
If you don't care about these women and their rights, what on earth makes you so passionate about the plight of males with gender identity issues?
Or are you really here just to complain about someone using the word bitch on page 2?

Cascade220 · 31/07/2019 22:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerFemaleness · 31/07/2019 22:29

Nobody said it was naughty or unsisterly, just how is it not misogynistic to say that about other women?

We live in a misogynistic society. We all have internalised some misogynistic attitudes. For some women this presents as calling other women "cowbag bitches" for others it's vocally supporting a hateful rigid sexist cultish ideology which justifies violence against women on the grounds that these women are committing 'literal violence' with their words and non-belief.