This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

Petrol, how can you identify with a body that is not yours?!

You can’t have someone else’s body. That is just bizarre.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, this is a concept that you will require your imagination for. I am aware that it is not literally possible to change bodies.

I find the comparison between homosexuality and innate gender identity fallacious.

It matters not whether there is a clear biological underpinning of homosexuality the fact of the matter is that human beings actually can and actually do have homosexual relationships. The arguments regarding those relationships have always been about morality, no one denies homosexuality is possible so it is possible to legislate for, or against it.

Gender ideology is not an argument about morality. Nobody is asking 'is it moral to change sex', they are pointing out it isn't possible to change sex. It is about reality not morality and whether we can legislate reasonably on that basis.

I understand the purpose of imagining things for pleasure.

But imagining you can have someone else’s body doesn’t have a wider social purpose.

Yes, it is not possible to change your biological makeup. It is entirely possible to change your body to present a convincing facsimile of another sex, however. So there is your physical manifestation that you can and must fairly legislate for.

Cultural appropriation something I find really interesting, and tricky! My wedding photos from 12 years ago have a white middle class woman wearing a sari outfit (no wedding-related reason). I wonder if she would do that now? Not saying it's right/wrong, just what is acceptable changes quickly.

It's not for pleasure. It's to develop an understanding of someone else's position by using empathy. We would have a very poor society without empathy.

It is entirely possible to change your body to present a convincing facsimile of another sex

Present, not be. No REAL.

So there is your physical manifestation that you can and must fairly legislate for.

Ah. So those who don't have cosmetic surgery and only have their gender identity/imagination to rely on, shouldn't be legislated for?

If I have cosmetic surgery for imaginative reasons other than gender identity - animal identity, alien identity, age identity, for example - should I receive protective legislation for this?

I don't know about you, but I would rather not base civil law around whether someone's consciousness is different to the person next to them, whether they have a soul, or whether this is all restricted by my imagination, their imagination or the imagination of the bloke down the road.

I also don't have the infinite amount of time to try and categorise people on that basis, in terms of the law.

And, there is the small matter of the fact that it's pointless, irrelevant, and of benefit to no one. Or possibly someone, or maybe three or four people or a million people, but you won't know, because you don't know how to categorise them.

You, on the other hand, are more than welcome to have a stab at it.

That isn’t how empathy works. You don’t have to literally imagining you have occupied someone else’s body to experience empathy.

With empathy, your brain responds as if the experience is happening to you.

It’s the exact opposite of putting yourself into their body. With empathy, your brain responds as if their experience was happening to your body. It’s shown in MRI scans.

I don't know about you, but I would rather not base civil law around whether someone's consciousness is different to the person next to them, whether they have a soul, or whether this is all restricted by my imagination, their imagination or the imagination of the bloke down the road.

Quite, Datun. As my Twitter person said above:

The assertion of the arbitrary desires of the individual, dressed up as rights (which will then inevitably conflict in irresolvable fashion), is no basis for a moral or political order.

I'm afraid the rights of someone's imagination stop very firmly before they get to the door leading to the rights of my material reality.

If a very significant number of people were having surgery to alter their appearance to become more like cats, yes I think it would be right to make reasonable adjustments for them. Why wouldn't you want to make adjustments to make other people comfortable, whether you personally wanted to also be a cat or not?

Yes, I’m not sure why gender identity needs to be important to me? I’m quite happy for it to be important to others

We know that certain things are experienced by members of the female sex. High risk of assault and rape when they are vulnerable for example

So we set aside certain spaces for members of the female sex to help keep them safer

I’m not sure where gender identity comes into that at all?

Haha! Lol. You wallie.

Sorry, that was to petrol 🤣🤣

Couldn't possibly have a debate without personal insults now could we?

Why wouldn't you want to make adjustments to make other people comfortable, whether you personally wanted to also be a cat or not?

Cat flaps in public buildings?

Litter trays in public toilets?

Leaving the seat up in the loo so they can have a drink? (No?...just my moggy then)

Haha! Still laughing.

Let's decide how many animals there are in the world, how many people would identify as them, and how many accommodations they can require.

You do that, meanwhile, I'll have a gin and tonic.

🤣

The question was raised, what if people did want to identify as animals. My answer is to just let them get on with it. It's not going to kill me to sit next to someone with whiskers drawn on their face, is it?

Yes

Self identified badger tunnels under main roads for all the self identified badgers

Perches on public transport for the self identified eagles

I’m using my imagination

Couldn't possibly have a debate without personal insults now could we?

Haha! Honestly petrol, a debate??

Why won't you accommodate people who identify as animals?!!!

Pissing myself.

If I run over a self identified hedgehog would I be in trouble? 🦔

Good, do so. It's entirely healthy to imagine alternative ways of living. It can never hurt to get mentally outside of your little box.

You know, there's that pesky shark. And the question of how high you can jump. But sometimes, petrol, you must not be restricted by your imagination, mate. You go for it.