This is a good thread about female trans allies

[Doyoumind]

twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19

Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

I'm not a male though

Great @RosesAndRaindrops , in that case you must be really clear about what 'male' means because you know you're not

I'd love to hear what 'male' means to you....?

Because people keep over and over saying "define" so people are trying to explain what it's like?

But its body dysphoria. Not fantasy.

It's where your self imagine is out of line with what everyone else perceives and sees.

You know... Like anorexia...

But no one uses that to describe what its like.

It's always the wrong body fantasy.

Why don't they use the analogy of anorexia? Is that for political reasons rather than descriptive reasons?

How many lines do EU regulations devote to defining a protected product under law? For instance, milk chocolate or a Cornish pasty?

I can’t think how the EU could protect Cornish pasties if the definition included “ineffable other stuff” or “anything else that wraps itself in dough and chooses to call itself Cornish even if it’s shaped like a pretzel and comes from Bavaria.”

Surely women merit, in law, a definition that protects them as well as Cornish pasties are defined and protected.

in that case you must be really clear about what 'male' means because you know you're not

Yes, it's not female which is me
I all "match up"
So all good and no don't know what being a male is like as a result

Men are not being called prostrate-havers. They are still men. It is women, and only women, who are being dehumanised into etc.

And yes, no doubt some women are fine with it. But our humanity as a sex class is not theirs to give away.

@redtoothbrush "All this mental gymnastics fantasising about a different body is merely reinforcing this nonsense of a wrong body narrative."

I know i can't change bodies. I'm just trying to describe my (lack of) gender identity to someone who does have a sense of gender identity. How would you describe your gender identity or lack thereof to someone with quite different experiences?

I all "match up"

Define what you're matching up to.

It's where your self imagine is out of line with what everyone else perceives and sees.

No, it's not a self imagine.
It's a female sense of self.
How are you supposed to even define it if some clearly don't have it?

Define what you're matching up to

Erm.......
woman

So all good and no don't know what being a male is like as a result

brilliant. so you know what being female is like?

what's it like?

Erm.......
woman

sounds like we're getting close!

what's a woman?

@NonnyMouse1337 "It's becoming apparent that gender identity ideology and transgenderism is a belief system that subscribes to the notion of an innate gender soul that exists independently of physiology and biology."

I don't think it's apparent at all? If You don't have a sense of gender identity, how can you know what having one is like?

sounds like we're getting close!

what's a woman

Never-ending, circular, roundabout......

Because you don’t answer Roses

It’s quite astonishing that you can’t acknowledge that

Never mind, I’ll go back to scrolling past your posts and leave you alone

I don't expect ScottishJenn to come back, so can anyone else give a source on the claims that GC organisations are funded by the far-right and that the GC movement is infiltrated by misogynist 4chan trolls?

Define gender identity @Maniak or any one who thinks it’s real?

What are the characteristics of a male gender identity for example?

Seem s to me that gender identity is either something biologically real ( and therefore independently ( could be nuanced by externalities ) or some kind of belief system

If it’s based on something real then are you saying people without innate gender identity are like people missing an arm?

How would you describe your gender identity or lack thereof to someone with quite different experiences?

I would compare it to religious versus atheistic people.

You have a sense of God, I do not.

You have a gender identity, I do not.

In a lot of ways I see similarities, some religious people just cannot seem to wrap their heads round the idea that others have no sense of God at all. Gender ideologists seem similarly incapable of wrapping their heads round the idea that many (most in my experience) people have no sense of gender identity.

Legislation needs to work for those who don't as much as those who do. That's why atheists are just as protected under the belief category as believers.

The same needs to apply to gender beliefs.

Because you don’t answer Roses It’s quite astonishing that you can’t acknowledge that

And you don't even attempt to even try to see anyone else's point of view, you keep saying "don't understand" even when people are trying to explain to you.
That's also quite "astonishing."
At least Maniak is at least trying to engage with other experiences and viewpoints

If it’s based on something real then are you saying people without innate gender identity are like people missing an arm?

Oo, interesting thought

If You don't have a sense of gender identity, how can you know what having one is like?

That's the problem, isn't it? Laws could be passed concerning 'gender identity', even though nobody can define what that is. Many of us not only don't have a gender identity, but we don't understand what it is like to experience having a gender identity. This doesn't seem like a good basis for changing legislation.

As NonnyMouse said, this is a religious-type belief system which is being forced on those of us who don't believe in it.

@arnoldwhatshisknickers

Yes that makes sense. If there really are people with gender identity and people without, both kinds need to be catered for.

"So yes, I am happy to say the only trait I share with all other women from the Queen of England to a woman in some as yet uncontacted Amazonian tribe is my biology. To me that is joyous and is more than enough."

Our thoughts are also our biology and we all have ideas that are inviolable. For me an example would be my children. I am their mother, we have a connection. If society told me that they weren't and we didn't or we shouldn't, I would struggle to accept that. Because we do. So that's what I'm thinking gender dysphoria might be like. Something as strong as that. Or like falling in love. You know it's fucked up with one part of your mind (love I mean) but it is also so real and like fate.

@Maniak many religious people claim to feel the presence of God and angels as support of why they believe in such concepts. As an atheist (and even when I was a Jehovah's witness) I have never felt such things. If that's what people want to believe in, that's fine.
However, if they started insisting that I and the rest of society have to change our definitions and laws and language, we have to give up or lose certain rights and protections that are in place for vulnerable members of society, that schools and universities have to teach these concepts as the truth, than any resistance or criticism to these concepts mean you are a heretic and should lose your job or livelihood, you have to alter your sexual orientation to accommodate such beliefs etc etc, then I have a big problem.

Those who have responded here have already said things like if they woke up in a man's body, they would still feel like a woman which implies that at least to them, gender identity is a spiritual notion of a soul that exists independently of the mind/body, physiology, biology and so on. It's something else. An essence that cannot be defined but only felt or experienced.

I'm quite happy to class such beliefs alongside every other spiritual and pseudoscience woo. I don't need to develop a belief in God or soul to understand the importance of not allowing some belief systems priority over others or over material reality.

So that's what I'm thinking gender dysphoria might be like.

I thought the discussion was about gender identity, not gender dysphoria. I thought gender (or sex) dysphoria was about someone perceiving their body as physically 'wrong'. Surely this is quite different from someone 'feeling like a woman/man', which is what gender identity seems to be about.

How would you describe your gender identity or lack thereof to someone with quite different experiences?

By saying I have a biological sex and that there are gender or identity stereotypes to flog things off the back of or to somehow control the population.

I learnt this in GCSE media studies and in history.

And I learnt a lot about how science is used to justify political ideologies too studying media and history. Not evidence based science but corrupted non ethical bullshit mascading as science and ideologically biased science which doesn't have proper methodology standards and control groups for quality control.

You know like we are seeing well demonstrated with the Tavistock scandal as it unfolds.

Propaganda is amazing in just how much it encompasses and touches.

You have to look for power structures and where messages are coming from and for what intent. This is where critical thought and scrutiny is essential to prevent abuses of power.

You also look for the invisible. Where are voices absent. Where is representation absent.

Where are the tomboys? Why do feminine men have such low social status? Where are the desisters? And the lesbian representation? And the wives, children and siblings of trans people? Where are the sad stories or are we supposed to only believe in the happily ever after stories, despite the high complication rates?

I could go on.

The lack of willingness to address the bad with the good is quite striking though and that can only mean one thing: a culture of wilful blindness and denial.

That begs only one other question: why?

Which I think brings us straight back around to the OP and who is buying into this ideology and for what reasons.