Page 13 | This is a good thread about female trans allies

Doyoumind · 2019-07-30T15:00:54+00:00

[[twitter.com/overpow_erin_g/status/1156003798898241543?s=19]] Thoughtful insights into how some women get drawn into the wrong side of the debate.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:11

Yes, it keeps getting brought back because people keep on an on asking to define.
People don't have all the answers yet, so how on earth are we supposed to repeatedly define?
There's clearly MORE to it than just biology for some.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 12:11

Oh

You did get angry Roses

And you didn’t define ‘womanhood’ even though you’re super sure that the standard definition is wrong

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 12:12

Endless circular conversation:

Person A: It's not about individuals or their sense of self. It's about collective class analysis of material reality.

Person B: HOW DARE YOU INSULT ME ME ME.

Repeat ad infinitum.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:13

I'm really not angry
Bizarre that you think someone disagreeing with you is angry?

Well if you try to read again the bit you said you don't understand, you might see an explanation to this bit And you didn’t define ‘womanhood’

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:14

Endless circular conversation

It really is.

Maniak · 31/07/2019 12:14

@rosesandraindrops

I think it's hard to understand because, for example, for me there just isn't any more. So it's like trying to imagine a colour you've never seen. You just have to take it on faith that it exists and that's hard for a lot of people. I mean, what's it even like?

I imagine that if I woke up as a man it would be exactly the same, I'd just have a man's body, maybe the testosterone would make me more aggressive. But I'd still be me, like, nothing different, I'd just go about my manly life. Apart from other people freaking out at the change I suppose, and maybe an overwhelming desire to stick my dick in stuff. Maybe it's a failure of imagination, I just don't know. But gender identity? It's baffling to me.

But yeah, clearly some people do have it.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:15

Person B: HOW DARE YOU INSULT ME ME ME.

I've never said you're insulting me, I'm putting across how it is for ME.
My experience is apparently "wrong" though.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/07/2019 12:17

Why the rush by gender identity ideology to impose their beliefs on society if no one knows what the definition of womanhood is other than 'it's not just biology but something more' ?
Why bother with the category of woman or womanhood anyway since suddenly in the space of a few years no one knows what it means now?
How would you even begin to attempt to define such a category legally? It would be open to all sorts of interpretations and exploitations.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:19

Thanks Maniak, nice to see someone at least trying to understand so I appreciate your post.
I imagine that if I woke up as a man it would be exactly the same, I'd just have a man's body, maybe the testosterone would make me more aggressive. But I'd still be me, like, nothing different, I'd just go about my manly life
See that's where we differ then as I definitely would not be "right" in a man's body.
Strange how it's there for some but not for others, think this is where the problem lies

Bespin · 31/07/2019 12:22

doing a great job all of convincing people who don't share your view that you have a point. I see we have gone back to the basics and circular questions again. it's really not going to convince people to think again if when you ask them a question and they answer it you conti9to ask them the same question because you don't like there answer.

TheInebriati · 31/07/2019 12:26

No one has ever woken up as an adult in the body of the opposite sex. Speculating about how that might feel is interesting but gives you no insight into dysphoria. It completely ignores the fact that children are raised in a gendered society that promotes the rights of one sex over those of the other.

RedDogsBeg · 31/07/2019 12:26

If womanhood is not defined by biology why then are all the terms being imposed on females to define themselves based on female biology or biological functions - cervix havers, menstruators, pregnant persons, etc.?

When will this biological terminology be applied to males and imposed on them?

Furthermore, when will those attempting to redefine women and womanhood using de-humanising language wake up and read some history and see what happens when de-humanising language and erosion of language is applied.

OvaHere · 31/07/2019 12:28

I don't think it's too much to expect solid, concise answers when legislation is being changed and proposed on the basis of these beliefs.

Legislation that has an impact on women's lives and their services.

Really it's the bare minimum of what would be expected.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 31/07/2019 12:28

I must confess that I don't for the life of me understand humanity's age old desperation to separate off from biology.

We are just biology. We're not minerals, we're not artificial intelligence, we're living breathing carbon based life forms. We're not separate from the animals, we are animals. Just bi-pedal apes doing our bi-pedal ape thing.

Biology is wonderful and interesting and varied and we are part of it. I don't understand why so many movements down the years have tried so hard not to be. I love that we are related to and part of all life on earth, that our biology, our bi-pedality has led on down the extraordinary path that is humanity. It is so much more than some tedious faith based straight jacket.

So yes, I am happy to say the only trait I share with all other women from the Queen of England to a woman in some as yet uncontacted Amazonian tribe is my biology. To me that is joyous and is more than enough.

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 12:30

doing a great job all of convincing people who don't share your view that you have a point. I see we have gone back to the basics and circular questions again. it's really not going to convince people to think again if when you ask them a question and they answer it you conti9to ask them the same question because you don't like there answer.

What do you think to my remarks on the revisionist history you were presenting upthread, Bespin? Did you read the thread from lesbians and gay men writing to Drag magazine in 1975? Did you read the magazine? What did you think to how the "community" saw itself then compared to how it sees itself now? And why does today's "community" deny its history? It seems such a shame.

LangCleg · 31/07/2019 12:32

It is so much more than some tedious faith based straight jacket.

This!

Maniak · 31/07/2019 12:33

@rosesandraindrops yeah right? So you just couldn't be a man. That is interesting. Yeah, I think that's the problem, people have completely different senses of gender and identity and it's so fundamental it's hard to understand the other experience.

That's why I get annoyed by the term "cis" woman, because I don't particularly identify as woman, although I know I am one. But you would probably be like yeah fine. Also those questions asking you with which sex you identify. Easy answer for you. I wonder why it's different like that.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 12:34

I don't think it's too much to expect solid, concise answers when legislation is being changed and proposed on the basis of these beliefs

This

I am so baffled by males who are certain that they’re women, but can’t define ‘woman’

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 31/07/2019 12:35

I am happy to say the only trait I share with all other women from the Queen of England to a woman in some as yet uncontacted Amazonian tribe is my biology. To me that is joyous and is more than enough

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:36

When will this biological terminology be applied to males and imposed on them?

There's transmen though, where they would use the mens - so they go about their business as a man. It does work both ways, it is applied to males as well

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 12:36

I imagine that if I woke up as a man it would be exactly the same, I'd just have a man's body, maybe the testosterone would make me more aggressive. But I'd still be me, like, nothing different, I'd just go about my manly life.

Why are we even discussing changing bodies?

You can't. It's an irrelevant thought process which just leads you to think about a fantasy that has no bearing on reality.

It doesn't put you in the shoes of someone who is trans, because no person who is trans changes their body.

They were NOT born in the wrong body. No one is. You are born in your body and it just is.

You might not like your body, but that's something entirely different.

You can not disassociate your brain and body. If you try to it's a sign of unhealthy thinking and mental health.

All this mental gymnastics fantasising about a different body is merely reinforcing this nonsense of a wrong body narrative.

It's part of the entire problem in the first place. It's not helping anyone, by somehow empthathising with them. Because it's a fantasy not a reality.

It allows this disassociation to be legitimised. It's encouraging fantastism and a detatchment from reality rather than facing up to self image issues. It's indulgent piffle which manipulates others to pity and comply with demands rather than getting someone to face up to their poor self image and challenge toxic stereotypes.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:37

I am so baffled by males who are certain that they’re women, but can’t define ‘woman’

I'm not a male though, and I've said how are you even supposed to define, it's a circular roundabout - all I know is MY experience.

RosesAndRaindrops · 31/07/2019 12:38

Why are we even discussing changing bodies?

Because people keep over and over saying "define" so people are trying to explain what it's like?

RedToothBrush · 31/07/2019 12:40

There's transmen though, where they would use the mens - so they go about their business as a man. It does work both ways, it is applied to males as well

Except it does not.

Ask Owen Jones about his attraction to transmen and he goes very quiet. Cos sex is still important to him even if he doesn't admit it.

Ask the Lords that wrote the law that protects their titles from pesky transmen.

Ask the masons who don't admit transmen but are happy to keep on transwomen.

They know. Everyone knows that transmen are not men.

NonnyMouse1337 · 31/07/2019 12:41

It's becoming apparent that gender identity ideology and transgenderism is a belief system that subscribes to the notion of an innate gender soul that exists independently of physiology and biology.

As an atheist, I don't see why one type of faith gets to call the shots and demand changes in legislation and the complete language and restructuring of society over others.

Scientology thinks people have the souls of aliens that attach to them. We don't see society trying to legislate and accommodate such beliefs. People can believe what they want to, but when it comes to wider secular society, one's belief system cannot demand everyone else acquiesce to it.