Feminists only claim to care about lesbians in order to justify transphobia

[emerencesometimeshopeful]

Came across this article today. Posted by a friend (ex-friend maybe) who I know would identify with the author.

I fundamentally disagree that the brave new world gives more options than the old one. I'm not even convinced that the numbers of people identifying themselves for statistical purposes as lgbtq+ is useful given the myriad of ways one can identify and fall under stonewall's umbrella.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/lesbians-trans-women-gender-issues-erasure-lgbt-rights-a9005151.html

I'm just not sure we can cherry pick the bits of feminism we like and drop the bits we don't like

yes we can. Stop telling me what I can and can't do.

derailing

*@thirdfiddle
*
, I'll stick with being an ally on gender issues.

I think that's what a lot of women on here are to be honest. And I for one am so pleased they're here. I do remember the days when there was like three of us on mumsnet who openly criticized trans.

when women who dont criticize marriage do criticize prostitution then that's not a feminist that's a right wing woman

What a load of nonsense.

This is nuts. Bi or Het women choosing to have their long term committed romantic relationship recognized legally by the state is in no way a “right wing” viewpoint.

As I recall You were also the same person who went on and on about how the Y chromosome causes men to be degenerates.

K.

I do remember the days when there was like three of us on mumsnet who openly criticized trans.

Your phrasing is very interesting. I don't feel that people on here 'criticize trans'. Most people that I've seen posting are worried about the impact on women's rights and safety. That's not the same as 'criticizing trans', which sounds a bit goady for some reason.

@FWRLurker

I said the nature/nurture issue is up for debate, as at other aspects of feminism.

Namalt, is not up for debate. If you go on threads namalting then you're a blatant anti feminist. Probably a gender ally who agrees with feminists on trans issues. Gender allies who aren't feminists should really stick to the trans threads

So who is our leader, sakura?

Whose ideas do we have to follow uncritically to be allowed to call ourselves feminists?

How do they get that status?

Do they need to be best-sellers, have a phd or to have gone to prison for the cause?

I'm a feminist because I consider women to be thinking people, why are you a feminist?

@Coyoacan

Okay let's stick with namalt for now. Do you think it's ok to go on a feminist board and tell women who are pissed off with men, who have theorized they are oppressed by men as a class, who don't want men in women's bathrooms/prisons/sports that they're wrong because namalt?

Namalt is the argument being put forward by TRA to allow men into women's bathrooms

Look. Thinking that “being married is an OK choice” is not a “right wing position” nor is “being against the prostitution of women” a right wing position. Why are you framing them as if they are?

Not all posters here are feminists. Nor do they need to be.

The only time NALMALTing bothers me is when it is part of a "you horrible bigot, why aren't you talking about the poor men" narrative.

Unfortunately at the moment we do seem to spend much of our time talking about men.

I'm talking about women who uphold right wing values that happen to coincide with feminist values but actually aren't feminist at all

I think yer problem here is confusing feminism, with what we should then do to try and improve things. So, I would view feminism, in the broadest sense, as some sort of understanding that the sex class women and the sex class men have ended up in different places, which aren't a natural consequence of their biology. And that things need to be readjusted or changed in some way. HOW you think that best needs to be done, what issues you think need considering, opinions vary, and just because some feminists might agree with some right-wing speakers in some areas (like thinking porn and prostitution are bad), doesn't invalidate that approach to feminism, or mean they are doing feminism wrong.

It is often attempted though by those trying to get some women to believe they are doing feminism wrong if it means they ever agree with someone right-wing, and also that they are doing it wrong if they don't agree with what someone left-wing says.

As regards feminists and lesbians, in the history of feminism at first (some) feminists weren't too happy with lesbians. But to those of us who learnt their feminism when it was practically obligatory to be a lesbian (or at least a political lesbian), to be included, the idea that feminists are only pretending to care about lesbians is laughable. Many of the best feminist thinkers I know are lesbian, and most gender-critical feminist writers I would go to are also lesbian. So no one is 'pretending' anything.

Illuminating though the sort of scare-mongering going on.

*@dolorsit
*
The only time NALMALTing bothers me is when it is part of a "you horrible bigot, why aren't you talking about the poor men" narrative.

Same

the idea that feminists are only pretending to care about lesbians is laughable. Many of the best feminist thinkers I know are lesbian, and most gender-critical feminist writers I would go to are also lesbian. So no one is 'pretending' anything.

@SomeDyke

I mean yes, the best feminists have been lesbians. Mary Daly, Janice Raymond, Andrea Dworkin and more

Like I said my comment was slightly off topic, it was about people who aren't feminists suddenly apparently having a lot of concern for lesbians while displaying openly anti feminists views like namalt

If you go on threads namalting then you're a blatant anti feminist. Probably a gender ally who agrees with feminists on trans issues. Gender allies who aren't feminists should really stick to the trans threads

Why are some people so heavily invested in trying to shove people into 'true feminist', 'false feminist' boxes? I'd rather listen to your actual argument about an issue, rather than this simplistic, boring nonsense of 'you said X therefore you're not a true feminist so I won't listen to what you say about anything else'. I'd even talk to the ghost of Margaret Thatcher if someone summoned her and she had something useful to say, because she was a woman. Mind you, I'd also give her a right earful about Section 28..............

Andrea Dworkin wasn’t a lesbian.

*@SomeDyke
*
Why are some people so heavily invested in trying to shove people into 'true feminist', 'false feminist' boxes?

Because feminism means something. Just like the word woman means something.
It's through women not safeguarding the word feminism and what it meant that got us in the situation we were in where being a stripper was a feminist act, being a prostitute was empowering and so on. Because women went along with the idea that anything can be feminist or that feminist doesn't mean anything at all. That feminism is nothing, really: not a movement , just ... a mixture of anything you want it to be and nothing really solid.

We have to take a stand on that. Feminism is no longer anything you want it to be. And if it doesn't fit your politics then it doesn't exist in its own right. MRAs are loving the idea that women can't even get their shit together enough to even define what feminism is because some people get offended that it doesn't fit what they want it to be

it was about people who aren't feminists suddenly apparently having a lot of concern for lesbians

What people? If women, I don't care whether they necessarily call themselves feminists or not if they are supporting lesbians. I'd say 'thankyou, about time, keep it up!'. Who is supposedly pretending?

openly anti feminists views like namalt Except I'd view that as just what many women say whilst they are still coming towards feminism, because their female socialization has trained them to be nice and what about the nice men, and not all men are potential rapists you know.............

It's not like we all spring from the head of Germaine fully-formed you know...........

ALL women have something useful to say, and we should be concerned about all women.

@Endofthedays

Well she identified as a lesbian. I know she married John and I think that was something to do with her being very sick and in America being unmarried and without the insurance you needed left women very vulnerable. I know she has received a lot of criticism from feminists for marrying him. I think she loved women first and was a lesbian because she wrote so much about being a lesbian

ALL women have something useful to say, and we should be concerned about all women.

As a feminist I am concerned about all women. I want us free.
But that doesn't mean feminism has to change to suit all the people who get upset that they don't like what it means and what it stands for , to the point where it becomes unrecognizable as feminism.

Well I think every single marriage is an individual one, with it's own strengths and weaknesses. I will not be told I'm not a feminist because I admire some peoples marriages, whilst being critical of others.

Namalt, is not up for debate. If you go on threads namalting then you're a blatant anti feminist.

See, there you show where we totally disagree, once the phrases 'no debate' and calling it anti-feminist creep in. Ideological purity wouldn't have saved us from the current mess, and won;t help us get out of it either. And very interesting, don't you think, that it is the pro-porn, pro-gender side that is also going for the same 'no debate', ideological purity style of approach........

Nope, I'll go for listening to all women, thank you very much, and not being scared to disagree. Arguments and debate, not these silly bans or refusal to engage.

@Watchfulwaiter

So you're of the opinion that feminism is anything you want it to be

@SomeDyke

Being nice has got us nowhere . Changing the definition of feminism in order to be nice to misogynistic women, no thank you

Jeez it isn't enough that we have men trying to control us, seems like every one in the world feels the need to lecture women on the right way to be feminist.

I don't consider NALMALTING to be anti-feminist it can be the start of a learning curve.

It's also quite possible to be right wing and be concerned about lesbians. In fact some lesbians are actually are right wingers. (Admittedly I can only think of one lesbian whereas I've known a few right wing gay men personally)