Banned from women-only FB group

[maet]

A trans woman edited by MNHQ because OP is using second language posted in a women's only FB group wanting free emotional labour and "validation" from untrained women to help them with getting over their abusive ex boyfriend.

I stated it wasn't appropriate to ask untrained women to take on their emotional labour, especially considering what had happened to them was so traumatic (according to them they ended up in hospital), and especially not for free and suggested they seek professional help instead.

Cue trans woman and women stating I was being transphobic, and "wouldn't understand the fear a marginalised group would go through."

I was told I hadn't been through a traumatic experience before so couldn't possibly understand what the OP was going through.

I've been banned from a group specifically designed for women. Nowhere in the post did I mention anything about the OP being trans.

I am so sick of this shit. The world has gone mad.

Emotional labour is a very well known and understood term in feminist theory, so posters on the FWR board doing the wide eyed not understanding shtick is really annoying

I have never come across it. How about you educate rather than sneer at those that obviously aren’t as good at feminism as you.

I don't think you were inappropriate at all OP, the group was not the place and you shouldn't have been banned.

Posie Parker has spoken about being in a women's political group and when who who thought they were women joined, they wanted to talk about getting their nails and hair done. It just wasn't what the group was meeting for and it would have been the same if those talking about nails and hair were women.

Book groups talk about all kinds of things but are primarily there to talk about the book.

The name of the group presumably had some kind of title about women in tech, the clue is in the title. You were not wrong to suggest this person seek professional help for a specific trauma situation.

*Have you heard of Google, marcopront?

Don't come to FWR with smug ignorance and expect women to do your research and spoon feed you*

Bloody hell no wonder women get the idea that feminism isn’t for them.

“Smug ignorance”? Jesus christ. I posted quickly in a break at work and didn’t have time to google and research feminist theory.

There is no need to be insulting. A simple “well known theory, why don’t you look it up” would have been helpful without being a superior dick about it.

It sounds like a very frustrating situation, and if everything occurred as you said, then what occurred was very unreasonable.

Had you been on the group for a while? Is there any way you could chat to a person who runs the group in private and explain that you would have said the same whoever it was that had posted? If you do so, maybe you could also mention that you would be happy to be contacted later, if the situation changes as I suspect the PP who said this might well be correct.

If it's any consolation in about a years time half the women who berated you will probably have dropped out of the group as it inwardly combusts.

I suspect many women here are guarded about responding to posters with unfamiliar names who are looking for condemnation of the behaviour of transwomen, hence the questions about context at the start. Hope you’ve managed to get some sleep.

@Bespin no, please read correctly or don't read at all. They had a beard. They didn't mention their beard. They mentioned they were trans.

@bluebluezoo you're an adult, you don't need others to "educate" you. You could simply look up phrases you don't understand. But I think putting the 2 words "emotional" and "labour" isn't so hard.

@AnyOldPrion thanks, although I haven't posted this thread on AIBU, because that would have been inappropriate and I would have been a hypocrite.

I'd been on the group for 2 years and found it to be welcoming and helpful. Not anymore. I'll just have to hope someone else makes a similar group, or maybe make one myself and hope it takes off.

Starting a new group might be a good idea. If others were also objecting, there might be a number of others who would join you. Do you recall any of the others objecting, so you could contact them?

I think you were treated unfairly OP. A group supporting women with tech start ups isn’t the place for anyone to talk about their relationship issues in detail. There are plenty other online support groups.

I also think it’s relevant that you are a German speaking group, as usually people are more likely to be more direct and factual.

I agree it’s another example of women being expected to centre men and their needs in everything. I suspect that if an XX woman had tried to use the group for this, she would have been directed elsewhere.

You are not being unreasonable at all and I think most people will find what happened to be frustrating and annoying. It’s a tech start up group for women and a male came in to talk about his difficult break up and expected emotional labour from women there for a totally different reason. That’s not ok.

For the posters that don’t know what ‘emotional labour’ means, that’s quite alright to not know but it’s not then ok to tell the OP she is unreasonable if you’re not familiar with the terms she’s using. New people are welcome but at the same time, when I was new I didn’t expect anyone here to hold my hand or extend extra energy explaining things to me.

The point of the thread is very simple. A male entered a women’s group about business and decided to unload his relationship problems in return for tea and sympathy. Not appropriate. Extremely fucking rude. Entitled. And then got a woman who used the group for its exact purpose kicked out.

Sound familiar?

I'm wary of the psychopathologising of everyday life. Cleaning and tidying is not OCD, acting selfishly doesn't mean you're a 'narc', and talking to people about your troubles doesn't mean you're demanding emotional labour from them.

I have certainly read many accounts of single individuals altering the entire course or atmosphere of a group, in a way that can lead to permanent change. That's really hard if it's a group you like and benefit from. I also value all female spaces, which to me aren't all female with transwomen in them. But be careful about policing behaviour unless the group has agreed that you're the police.

Part of the problem with this is that if you're hearing about this sort of situation for the first time it can seem a little harsh. But I have heard loads of similar examples.

All groups with the word woman in them. If a certain sort of transwoman is seeking validation, this is where they might go.

And if you're aware of it you'll pushback. Hence appearing callous to anyone not familiar with the tactics.

And it's got to be something of a Twilight Zone experience when it's you who gets vilified and kicked out.

I'm inclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt over their interpretation of events.

The presence of a man in any female group will instantly alter the dynamic. Something that no man will ever really be aware of.

If, instead of trying to blend in, you are demanding attention, and attention that's completely irrelevant to the purpose of the group, I can see why it would be annoying.

And if any pushback results in this person upping the anti, then I think that's a fairly conclusive example of why they shouldn't be there.

And other woman's reaction is not indicative of clarity. Women who are not used to this kind of validation seeking, will, quite naturally, be sympathetic initially.

I totally agree with a PP that, if the OPs interpretation is correct, in six months the group will be decimated.

We all know how polarising this issue is. And I have heard examples of group after group closing in exactly the same way.

Also, if this person was seeking validation, you calling what they were doing emotional labour would have sent them into the stratosphere.

Agree with Datum

I've heard of this happening a lot, having "women" in the title of the group and it being closed would make it a target sadly.

It was a group for women in tech start-ups in a particular German town.

The poster was not from the German town
Was not a woman
Their post was nothing to do with tech start-ups

They joined a group and first thing they did was raise a highly emotive issue that most women would feel compelled to respond in a validating way.

You suggested professional help which was perfectly reasonable and appropriate.

The group sadly is unlikely to survive for much longer or will get regular derailment from the person concerned.

For future ref the best tactic with people like that in future is called Grey rock. They need your - collective your - responses so give them nothing, do not respond. When they receive no response they will go look elsewhere for one.

Sorry about your group, it's sad this has happened.

It was a group for women in tech start-ups in a particular German town.

The poster was not from the German town
Was not a woman
Their post was nothing to do with tech start-ups

In a nutshell.

I was a Facebook admin in a large but very different group. It was my role to keep the group focussed and I and my team would absolutely remove anything like in the OP, without hesitation. Not because we are unkind or unfeeling, but because that’s not what the group was for. If it was a very distressing message, I would personally private message the individual and see if I could help or direct them to help.

It is extremely narcissistic to enter a group and talk about your problems in this way. The error here is the admin though, they should have tidied it up and protected their space better.

I googled "emotional labour". One of the first results I got was this.

The term has become a central part of an important conversation about the division of household work. But the sociologist who coined it says it’s being used incorrectly

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/576637/

We had a similar situation in a feminist group I was part of. One poster basically used it as a punching bag for her boyfriend. The group generally discussed academic, political and social issues, with the odd bit of personal anecdotes and emotional support if and when required, but this girl took the piss. Post after post about her boyfriend and their issues, which was very awkward as the group wasn't anonymous and several members knew the man in question. In the end we asked the
group admin to have a quiet word after a particular outburst. We made certain concessions due to the woman's mental health and amount of time on the board, but generally it was agreed that her posting wasn't in keeping with the point of the group and she was given advice and direction on where best to take her relationship questions.

I'm sorry you've been ousted from your group, sounds like a very needy man who needs to work on their boundaries. I hope he gets support but it should never have been at the expense of your professional space.

Idve treated it the same as on here - some people are genuine and I just avoid those who have the whiff of emotional vampires. I have no idea if your person was genuine, lying or being a willowy drama llama but to advise they seek professional help is absolutely the right thing to do.

If, instead of trying to blend in, you are demanding attention, and attention that's completely irrelevant to the purpose of the group, I can see why it would be annoying.

Yes. If events went as OP describes, it seems to be part of that male fantasy of "woman" that we never do anything else aside from splurge our personal lives to each other. It doesn't occur that some groups are professional, some hobby-based, some supportive, etc etc.

@bluebluezoo you're an adult, you don't need others to "educate" you. You could simply look up phrases you don't understand. But I think putting the 2 words "emotional" and "labour" isn't so hard

Why does this forum exist then? We could have a page that says “you’re an adult, google it”.

Manners cost nothing. Especially when it comes to sharing your knowledge about a subject you’re supposedly passionate about. You’d think you’d want to encourage other to take up feminism not be so rude they think it’s full of aggressive militants who will belittle them if they ask a question.

My professional life is spent being asked a lot of questions by adults who could google and find it out for themselves. But I have years of experience and can distill hundreds of web pages into a couple of sentences and pointers as to where to start. And hopefully send them off with enthusiasm for the subject. I do it because it benefits them, and their cause.

For many it is necessary as the internet isn’t a factual source. It’s full of opinions and personal vendettas. Which is how we end up with people “educating” themselves on vaccination, for example, and concluding it’s a bad thing.

I’ve been on this forum a while now and have learned a lot, have gone away and followed links, researched stuff to learn further. Posters in the main are keen to help others understand feminism, not put blocks in place.

It just comes across as superior, aggressive and condecending. No wonder women don’t want to engage.

I think you will find that women DO want to engage actually , this is one of the most popular boards on MN.

It just comes across as superior, aggressive and condecending

The post referring to "smug ignorance" was all of that.

I Googled "emotional labour" and found an interview with the person who coined the phrase where she said it's now being used incorrectly.

@bluebluezoo I have been polite to you. It's very easy to Google terms you don't understand, but if you'd like further clarification it's best to not ask in a goady manner, which is what you have done to many posters. I've just typed "emotional labour" into my search engine, and a perfectly accurate definition was one of the first results that came up.