Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Laurel Hubbard wins gold

276 replies

TundraDweller · 13/07/2019 08:22

Gearing up for the Tokyo 2020 Olympics -

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/114222068/laurel-hubbard-wins-gold-at-pacific-games-after-losing-name-surpression-battle

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
JessicaWakefieldSV · 15/07/2019 13:15

Saelua's example shows that transwomen can be included in sport in a fair and principled way, by continuing to play men's sport.

I would want to see more about why they play in the men’s. Note they said they’re delaying their transition. I would want to ask them if they think those who have ‘transitioned’ should play against or with women.

In terms of showing they can be included in the correct sex division, yes it does. I just wish Saelua talked about that part more.

FermatsTheorem · 15/07/2019 13:24

Well that's what interested me about Andy's article. The article is badly written - you can't tell which team Saelua is playing for because the sex of the team mates isn't made clear (hence me resorting to Wikipedia to get the lists of current male and female squad members). But it seems to imply Saelua has had a bit of time out to "fully transition" and the photo clearly shows a change from the flat chested photos of your 2014 article, Jessica, so it looks to me as though Saelua is a good way through the medical process but still choosing to play men's football which is to be applauded I think.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 15/07/2019 13:25

I wonder if it’s their choice or Samoa’s

JessicaWakefieldSV · 15/07/2019 13:37

Found what I was looking for. I hate their views on homosexuality, obviously, but I see that it’s a huge part of their culture. It’s sad really.

In my culture, we believe there are two spirits inside every person,” Saelua says, “one masculine and one feminine. A fa’afafine is more in touch with the feminine spirit, but we still have a male spirit inside us.” According to Saelua, the fa’afafine of American Samoa aren’t trans, cross-dressers, or drag queens—they’re not even queer. “There’s no such thing as gay on the island,” Saelua says. “If a man wants to be with another man, he will be with a fa’afafine, and he’s not considered gay because he’s attracted to the feminine side of a person. But two straight men getting together?” Saelua says, cocking a sculpted brow. “Never.”

At 25 years old, Saelua still has another shot at the World Cup, which she plans to take with the American Samoa national team (training camp begins this fall). But in order to stay at peak physical condition for men’s soccer, Saelua can’t transition; estrogen would reduce her muscle mass and accelerate weight gain. Saelua could, in theory, transition and play in the women’s league like other transgender pioneers—Renée Richards in tennis and Fallon Fox in mixed martial arts. “It’s a personal decision I’ve made to delay my transition until after the next qualifying rounds for the World Cup. If I transition now, I won’t be able to play at a competitive level for the men’s team and I don’t want that to be the end: ‘She can’t play soccer because she got her surgery.’ ” (Saelua also doesn’t want to play for the women’s national team because she thinks she would be “stealing” another player’s slot.)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.out.com/entertainment/sports/2014/06/26/soccer-trans-jayiah-saelua-american-samoa-third-gender-faafafine%3famp

Popchyk · 15/07/2019 13:55

"It’s an arms race. If one side fields TW then every side needs to field TW. They’ll take first, second and third place".

Yup, and you only need a few in each event worldwide. And these few will be able to compete in multiple events. Semenya has said that they can compete from 100m to 10, 000m.

I imagine it would only take around 30 male athletes who identify as women to win every single gold medal in the track and field schedule for women at the Olympics. There are only 23 events. And some male athletes could compete in all of the 200, 400, 800m women's races for example. Others would do 1500, 5000 and 10, 000m women's races.

For males to take every single gold, silver and bronze in the women's categories in both track and field? Maybe 60 males in total? Fewer than that?

Compare that to the hundreds of thousands of women athletes who compete at events at world, national, county and local level throughout the world. And yet at this rate they won't ever be able to win a world or Olympic title. Ever.

arranbubonicplague · 15/07/2019 14:02

I'm stuck to think of events that won't 'fall' tho' I'll be interested to see if the relevant sports bodies will face much pressure to allow entryism to rhythm gymnastics but it seems that there is pressure on synchronised swimming.

failingatlife · 15/07/2019 14:36

This is the abuse female athletes get when they speak out about male cheats.

Laurel Hubbard wins gold
Michelleoftheresistance · 15/07/2019 14:42

Tweets like that make it very clear this is primarily about enthusiastically misogynistic disrespect for women and a strong interest in removing resources from them and then enjoying the resulting impact on them/ watching them struggle and fail.

Male supremacy in action, nothing 'inclusive' about it. Can you imagine it being socially acceptable to talk about trans people in an equal way?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 15/07/2019 15:03

That tweet is gross

failingatlife · 15/07/2019 15:24

Horrible isn't it? Here the interview with the girl who has spoken out. Well done Selina!

dailycaller.com/2019/06/19/high-school-athlete-selina-soule-sidelined-by-transgender-athletes/

andyoldlabour · 15/07/2019 15:38

FermatsTheorem

Thanks for that, I stand corrected. We live in a very confusing world at the moment.

andyoldlabour · 15/07/2019 15:48

"That tweet is gross"

It certainly is, and could have easily come from a very mysoginistic man who hates women. The person in question is a regular ally of Rachel McKinnon.

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/rendezview/i-dont-mind-being-a-man-sometimes-now-im-a-woman/news-story/c2c6bdad8cfbce61e9e56994fe814ed4

FermatsTheorem · 15/07/2019 17:41

It was a really misleading article, andy (possibly deliberately so - weird how even when you go back and read it carefully, as I did after checking the team sheets, there's no pronouns or mentions of sex at all in the description of the team), so I entirely see how you got the wrong end of the stick. I would have done too had I not read the Guardian article Jessica linked to a year or so ago, and remembered the name.

SunsetBeetch · 16/07/2019 08:03

Nice to see a newspaper standing up fir the women athletes

"Hubbard moment the biggest and most blatant injustice in Samoa XVI Pacific Games"

www.samoaobserver.ws/category/samoa/45741

JessicaWakefieldSV · 16/07/2019 08:09

It’s important to see that from a country that accepts Fa’afafine and I think we should all bookmark that article to use when people argue about ‘third genders’ and how other non-western cultures accept it and always have. It’s not quite the reality is it? Clearly many Polynesians believe regardless of identify, that we are clearly Male or female.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 16/07/2019 09:00

I have just emailed the article from the Samoa Observer by
Mata'afa Keni Lesa, 07/15/2019, to the NZ Olympic Weight Lifting Association. I said that I respect Laurel Hubbard as a person, but no one born male should compete against women weightlifters.

Will be interesting to see if I get a reply.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 16/07/2019 09:01

Good for you. Even if they don’t reply, they won’t, it’s good to show them people are rightly disgusted. Unfortunately I think NZ could care less what Samoa thinks about this.

littlbrowndog · 16/07/2019 10:00

www.samoaobserver.ws/category/samoa/45741

NotBadConsidering · 16/07/2019 11:47

I’m not really that enamoured by the whole “open the floodgates” argument, simply because one single woman or girl denied by a male in their competition is enough for it to be a massive injustice.

terfsandwich · 16/07/2019 22:58

Important update: apparently the Samoa Observer has been banned from twitter because of their heretical article: www.samoaobserver.ws/category/samoa/45741

As pointed out on the other place, this is Western imperialism silencing the "natives". Colonialism all over again, where the whites are superior and no one may question.

donquixotedelamancha · 16/07/2019 23:39

apparently the Samoa Observer has been banned from twitter because of their heretical article

Seems like they are back now. twitter.com/samoa_observer?lang=en

No mention of having been banned and they still have links up to a critical article as well as one supportive of hubbard.

Popchyk · 16/07/2019 23:45

Former Samoan rugby international Daniel Leo is not impressed.

twitter.com/danleo82/status/1151111169421250563

"This is happening under our noses

Only aware after my sister missed out on rep volleyball selection in Aus due to a transgender who “crossed” that year

Come on people we need to stand up for female athletes here- Oppression disguised as inclusivity 👎🏼"

and

twitter.com/danleo82/status/1151238640837808129

"The only thing more disturbing than the @Olympics committee’s decision to allow transgender men to compete against women-sometimes dangerously so- is the DEAFENING silence of MEN on the issue...

I’m embarrassed.

Let’s make this right. Now".

OtepotiLilliane42 · 17/07/2019 05:21

Two very recent articles from NZ, which lay out the case that transgender athletes have an unfair advantage over female athletes. The unecessary use of the term 'cis' women really grated on me in the first article, but other than that it was good to see comments like these:

Heather said the advantages go well beyond a testosterone level test. A trans athlete has prior exposure to testosterone, which develops larger muscle mass, muscle distribution and even the amount of oxygen the athlete can accumulate

"All these factors are not considered. We just say your testosterone level is under 10mnol/L. It is still much higher than a cis female and none of the rest is being considered

"It's not just your here and now testosterone that matters, there is also prior exposure to testosterone. Testosterone even form a fetus is defining a males brain, a male's bone structure and lung structure."

"They have a different bone structure so they are able to put more power in their jumping and anything that involves having to lift something, they have more power in their legs through their knees to hip ratio."

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/114291291/otago-university-researchers-call-for-new-sporting-categories-due-to-trans-athletes-unfair-advantage

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power

Otago University professor in physiology Alison Heather has researched transgender changes, particularly in top level sport.
She is adamant international sporting regulation bodies such as the International Olympic Committee (IOC) have rushed a decision to include transgender athletes in male and female categories, as there has not been enough research.

Juells · 17/07/2019 08:39

Michelleoftheresistance
Tweets like that make it very clear this is primarily about enthusiastically misogynistic disrespect for women and a strong interest in removing resources from them and then enjoying the resulting impact on them/ watching them struggle and fail.

Yes, you've explained it so well, I wouldn't have been able to identify exactly what's going on. It's filled with spiteful glee.

OtepotiLilliane42
I said that I respect Laurel Hubbard as a person

Liar liar pants on fire Grin

Yeahnahyeah · 17/07/2019 09:05

www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-interviews/kiwi-dh-racer-kate-weatherly-shares-her-story-and-highlights-from-her-first-world-cup-races/

Kate Weatherly unironically marvelling at their rapid improvement after changing to the woman's team.

". I was slow to learn and I didn’t start having much success until the last couple of years."

HmmHmmHmm

Swipe left for the next trending thread