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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Peak Transing

999 replies

Apollo440 · 12/07/2019 15:05

This thread on AIBU has been joined by some aggressive TRAs who are doing sterling work peak transing the more delicate areas of mumsnet.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3634784-to-not-want-to-sign-off-my-emails-with-preferred-pronouns

Real TWAW No debate or your c*nts type. Carry on I say!

OP posts:
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JackyHolyoake · 13/07/2019 18:22

I don't give a shit was my response to being asked to explain the difference between women and trans women. I don't know how many more times I need to say this.

There you go ... Petrol cannot help but peak trans many more females ...

RosesAndRaindrops · 13/07/2019 18:22

But women have been accused of wanting other women to be raped, for 'feminism', and that is pretty bloody dark
No. You are saying that

Um...

And I am wondering what is dark about not sharing a viewpoint such as women not wanting other women to be raped in jail

You just inferred that one of the things we disagree on is whether or not women should be raped in prison. Seriously?
Well, exactly. Why don't you agree that this is a bad thing?

(Insinuating she thinks it's not a bad thing women should be raped in jail, I mean WTAF?!)

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:23

Hamster00

Fully powered and operational Datun wink

Do you think that they don't actually believe you? That you're trans? Or do you think that they do, but sticking it to women is more important?

PurpleCrowbar · 13/07/2019 18:23

Petrol - what if the male fraudster says the magic words 'I identify as a woman'?

Now can he? Or might you be a bit, I dunno...sceptical?

MIdgebabe · 13/07/2019 18:24

So only violent sex offenders? Other men in the female space until they commit violent sex crimes and get Convicted? Not acceptable to me. It places women at unnecessary risk for trivial benefit to the men

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:24

Anyway.

Roses, what did you make of the 76 kids identifying as trans in one school?

Ereshkigal · 13/07/2019 18:24

Why are you even here, Petrol? What do you remotely think you have to offer this debate? "I don't give a shit" "I don't give a shit" "I don't give a shit"

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 18:25

Why shouldn't I be here?

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:25

Oh, and the 1 in 10 men identifying as trans amongst the traveller community?

FeministCat · 13/07/2019 18:25

I've got nothing against the idea of a third space. It's a nice compromise. But it's impractical to implement. So for that reason, it's only ostensibly going to resolve things.

But why impractical? That did not stop women from advocating for their own sex segregated toilets back when they were almost all for men only. Seemingly “impractical” but it was done. By women, who weren’t even allowed to own their own wages.

And now you advocate taking that away because “impractical” for transpersons to advocate for a third space?

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

An excerpt:

We take single-sex public toilets for granted today. It is hard to believe that when public conveniences were first constructed, the vast majority of these toilets were just for men.

The story in Britain starts in 1851, as the Great Exhibition show-cased the first public flushing toilet, created by George Jennings, who was a plumber from Brighton. The popularity of this invention was such that the first public lavatories opened the following year and were known as ‘Public Waiting Rooms’. The vast majority of these were men’s conveniences.

In the mid-19th century, many areas of life were sex-segregated and gendered; the private sphere was for the women, the public sphere was for men. Whilst working-class women did undertake plenty of work, they did not own their own wages, their husbands did. The popular image of a woman was the ‘Angel in the House’ ideal, a woman who was devoted and submissive to her husband.

In Victorian Britain, most public toilets were designed for men. Of course, this affected women’s ability to leave the home, as women who wished to travel had to plan their route to include areas where they could relieve themselves. Thus, women never travelled much further than where family and friends resided. This is often called the ‘urinary leash’, as women could only go so far as their bladders would allow them.

This lack of access to toilets impeded women’s access to public spaces as there were no women’s toilets in the work place or anywhere else in public. This led to the formation of the Ladies Sanitary Association, organised shortly after the creation of the first public flushing toilet. The Association campaigned from the 1850s onwards, through lectures and the distribution of pamphlets on the subject. They succeeded somewhat, as a few women’s toilets opened in Britain.

LangCleg · 13/07/2019 18:25

What about XY inmates convicted for child sex offences, including child abuse images (XY comprise more than 99% of inmates convicted for these crimes)? Where should they go? What about prisons with mother and baby units in the XX estate? Will there have to be fewer of those to avoid XY presence? Where does that leave the vulnerable XX prisoners with babies, who will have to be accommodated much further from home, thus lowering the rate of successful releases?

PetrolBastard · 13/07/2019 18:26

Yes, only violent sex offenders get treated like violent sex offenders. That's my rule.

RosesAndRaindrops · 13/07/2019 18:27

There you go ... Petrol cannot help but peak trans many more females

You don't seem to realise that it works the other way too, what would it be? Peak radfem probably.
As I've said, people make their own mind up where they sit and where they are comfortable with what people are saying on here.

DtPeabodysLoosePants · 13/07/2019 18:27

Male fraudster sounds about right for the prison scenario.

PurpleCrowbar · 13/07/2019 18:28

So men with convictions for offences carrying a custodial penalty, but not violent sex offences, can be accommodated in women's jails if they say the magic words, then?

That really is what you're saying here, Petrol?

LangCleg · 13/07/2019 18:29

I think they should be kept in solitary confinement.

You think all convicted XY sex offenders with the gender identity of "woman" should be kept in solitary confinement just so that they can be accommodated in the XX estate?

You might want to look up some jurisprudence on human rights and solitary confinement, m'dear.

Hamster00 · 13/07/2019 18:29

Do you think that they don't actually believe you? That you're trans? Or do you think that they do, but sticking it to women is more important?

I'd go with the latter tbh. I did notice the "convenience" with which my points were glossed over and the personal attacks continued.

MIdgebabe · 13/07/2019 18:29

You approve of putting the desires of men ahead of the safety and dignity of women? Wow. I have got it, your a dinasour.

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:29

I do love that access to this site via this board has increased what was it, twelvefold or sixteen fold? In one year?

And this has now become one of the most popular boards on the site?

Ereshkigal · 13/07/2019 18:30

Because you don't give a shit about women and women's rights. Last time I looked this is Feminist Chat. You are uninformed about many aspects of this issue and aren't interested in putting a reasoned argument beyond "I don't give a shit". I suspect because you know full well it's simply a faith belief that males can be women, you don't have a leg to stand on and you don't want to get backed into a corner.

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:30

I'd go with the latter tbh. I did notice the "convenience" with which my points were glossed over and the personal attacks continued.

Yep.

JackyHolyoake · 13/07/2019 18:30

extract from "Gender Dysphoria is not one thing:

Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria (Adolescent Boys and Men)

From a parent’s perspective, autogynephilic gender dysphoria (which occurs only in natal males) often seems to come out of the blue. This is likely to be true whether the onset is during adolescence or adulthood. A teenage boy may suddenly announce that he is actually a woman trapped in a man’s body, or that he is transgender, or that he wants gender transition. Typically, this revelation follows his intensive internet research and participation in internet transgender forums. Importantly, the adolescent showed no clear, consistent signs of either gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria during childhood (that is, before puberty).

There is an important distinction between rapid-onset gender dysphoria and autogynephilic gender dysphoria that happens to have an adolescent onset. Rapid-onset gender dysphoria is suddenly acquired, whereas autogynephilic gender dysphoria may be suddenly revealed, after having grown in secret for a number of years. We will talk more about this later.

Where does autogynephilic gender dysphoria come from? We know a lot about the motivation of this kind of gender dysphoria. Most of our knowledge comes from studies of adults born male who transitioned during adulthood. Some of these adults had gender dysphoria during adolescence, but all of them had the root cause of their condition: autogynephilia.

(Warning: Autogynephilia is about sex. We understand that it is awkward and uncomfortable for any parent to consider their children’s sexual fantasies. But you can’t understand your son with this kind of gender dysphoria without doing so.)

Autogynephilia is a male’s sexual arousal by the fantasy of being a woman. That is, autogynephilic males are turned on by thinking about themselves as women, or behaving like women. The typical heterosexual adolescent boy has sexual fantasies about attractive girls or women. The autogynephilic adolescent boy’s may also have such fantasies, but in addition he fantasizes that he is an attractive, sexy woman. The most common behavior associated with autogynephilia during adolescence is fetishistic cross dressing. In this behavior, the adolescent male wears female clothing (typically, lingerie) in private, looks at himself in the mirror, and masturbates. Some autogynephilic males are not only sexually aroused by cross dressing, but also by the idea of having female body parts. These body-related fantasies are especially likely to be associated with gender dysphoria.

It is important to distinguish between autogynephilia and autogynephilic gender dysphoria. Autogynephilia is basically a sexual orientation, and once present does not go away, although its intensity may wax and wane. Autogynephilic gender dysphoria sometimes follows autogynephilia, and is the strong wish to transition from male to female. A male must have autogynephilia to have autogynephilic gender dysphoria, but just because he is autogynephilic doesn’t mean he will be gender dysphoric. Many autogynephilic males live their lives contented to remain male. Furthermore, sometimes autogynephilic gender dysphoria remits so that a male who wanted to change sex no longer does so.

In general, adolescent boys are unlikely to divulge their sexual fantasies to their parents. This is likely especially true of boys with autogynephilia. Furthermore, many boys who engage in cross dressing feel ashamed for doing so. The fact that autogynephilic fantasies and behaviors are largely private is one reason why autogynephilic gender dysphoria usually seems to emerge from nowhere. Another reason is that autogynephilic males are not naturally very feminine. An adolescent boy with autogynephilia does not give off obvious signals of gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria.

It is likely that most autogynephilic males do not pursue gender reassignment, but this is difficult to know. (We would need to conduct a representative survey of all persons born male, asking about both autogynephilia and gender transition. This has not been done and won’t be done anytime soon.) Many males with autogynephilia are content to cross dress occasionally. Some get married to women and many also have children. Family formation is no guarantee against later transition, although that may slow it up somewhat. In past decades, when autogynephilic males have transitioned, they have most often done so during the ages 30-50, after having married women and fathered children. It is possible that autogynephilic males have recently been attempting transition at younger ages, including adolescence.

The relationship between autogynephilia and (autogynephilic-type) gender dysphoria is uncertain. One view is that gender dysphoria may arise as a complication of autogynephilia, depending perhaps on chance events or environmental factors. Another view is that autogynephiles who become progressively gender dysphoric were somewhat different from simple autogynephiles from the beginning (for example, more obsessional). Because we do not actually know the causes of autogynephilia, it is quite difficult to sort out these various interpretations at present.

Autogynephilia—the central motivation of autogynephilic gender dysphoria—can be considered an unusual sexual orientation. As with other kinds of male sexual orientation, we do not know how to change it, and we shouldn’t try. The dilemma is how to live with autogynephilia in a way that allows the most happiness. For some with autogynephilia, this will mean staying male. For others, it will mean transitioning to female.

What do we know about autogynephilic gender dysphoria?

Much of what we know about autogynephilic gender dysphoria comes from research conducted on adults. Most of the early research was conducted by the scientist who developed the theory of autogynephilia, Ray Blanchard. This work was subsequently confirmed and extended by other researchers, especially Anne Lawrence, Michael Bailey, and Bailey’s students.

Blanchard’s research identified two distinct subtypes of gender dysphoria among adult male gender patients. One type, which he called “homosexual gender dysphoria” is identical to childhood onset male gender dysphoria. Males with this condition are homosexual, in the sense that they are attracted to other biological males. Blanchard provided persuasive evidence that the other male gender patients were autogynephilic. We currently favor the theory that there are only two well established kinds of gender dysphoria among males, because no convincing evidence for any other types has been offered. This could change­–we are committed to a scientific open-mindedness. In particular, it is possible that some cases of adolescent-onset gender dysphoria among males are essentially the same as Rapid-onset Gender Dysphoria that occurs among natal females. This will require more research to establish, however.

Autogynephilia is a probably rare, although it is difficult to know for certain. Among males who seek gender transition, however, it is common. In fact, in Western countries in recent years, including the United States, autogynephilia has accounted for at least 75% of cases of male-to-female transsexualism.

Given how important autogynephilia is for understanding gender dysphoria, it may surprise you that you had never heard of it. Autogynephilia remains a largely hidden idea because most people–including journalists, families, and many males with autogynephilia–strongly prefer the standard, though false, narrative: “Transsexualism is about having the mind of one sex in the body of the other sex.” Many people find this narrative both easier to understand and less disturbing than the idea that some males want a sex change because they find that idea strongly erotic.

Although many autogynephilic males find discovery of the idea of autogynephilia to be a positive revelation–autogynephilia has been as puzzling to them as it is to you–some others are enraged at the idea. There are two main reasons why some autogynephilic males are in denial. First, they correctly believe that many people find a sexual explanation of gender dysphoria unappealing–discomfort with sexuality is rampant. Second, they find this explanation of their own feelings less satisfying than the standard “woman trapped in man’s body” explanation. This is because autogynephilia is a male trait, and autogynephilia is about wanting to be female.

It is good to be aware of autogynephilia’s controversial status, because transgender activists are often hostile to the idea. You will not learn more about it from the activists. And if your son has frequented internet discussions, he may also resent the idea. We emphasize that autogynephilia is controversial for social reasons, not for scientific ones. No scientific data have seriously challenged it.

Sexuality

Males with autogynephilia can have a variety of autogynephilic fantasies and interests, from cross dressing to fantasizing about having female bodies to enjoying (for erotic reasons) stereotypical female activities such as knitting to fantasizing about being pregnant or menstruating. One study found that autogynephilic males who fantasize about having female genitalia also tended to be those with the greatest gender dysphoria.

Autogynephilic males sometimes identify as heterosexual (i.e., attracted exclusively to women); sometimes as bisexual (attracted to both men and women), and sometimes as asexual (i.e., attracted to no individuals). Blanchard’s work has shown that autogynephilia can be thought of as a type of male heterosexuality, one that is inwardly directed. Autogynephilia often coexists with outward-directed heterosexuality, and so autogynephilic males usually say they are also attracted to women. Some autogynephilic males enjoy the idea that they are attractive, as women, to other men. They may have sexual fantasies about having sex with men (in the female role); some may even act on these fantasies. This accounts for the bisexual identification among some autogynephilic males. In some others, the intensity of the autogynephilia–which is attraction to an imagined “inner woman”–is so great that there are no erotic feelings left for other people. This accounts for asexual identification. (Asexual autogynephilic males have plenty of sexual fantasies, but these fantasies tend not to involve other people.)

When autogynephilic males receive female hormones as part of their gender transition, they typically experience a noticeable decrease in their sex drive. Some have reported that this has diminished their desire for gender transition as well. Others, however, have reported no change in their desire for transition. (In any case, hormonal therapy is a medical intervention with serious potential side effects, and we do not recommend it as a way to treat gender dysphoria, except in cases in which after very careful consideration, gender transition is pursued.)

Autogynephilia is a paraphilia, meaning an unusual sexual interest nearly exclusively found in males.

We repeat: Autogynephilia is a sexual orientation–to be sure, an unusual orientation that is difficult to understand. There is no evidence that parents can change their children’s sexual orientations. And we don’t think they should try.

What should you do?

Consistent with our values, knowledge, and common sense, we believe that males with autogynephilic gender dysphoria should not pursue gender transition right away, as soon as they first have the idea. Transition ultimately requires serious medical procedures with irreversible consequences. But we are unsure what the right approach to autogynephilic gender dysphoria is. In part, this is because there has been too little outcome research conducted by scientists knowledgeable and open about autogynephilia.

First, we recommend that your son be informed about autogynephilia. The best way to do this is up to you. There is probably no non-awkward way. Consider showing them this blog. People should make important life decisions based upon facts, and for males autogynephilic gender dysphoria, autogynephilia is a fact. The standard “female mind/brain in male body” is a fiction.

Some males become less motivated to pursue gender change when they understand their autogynephilia. However, some do not become less motivated. We know far less about patterns of persistence and desistance of autogynephilic gender dysphoria than we do about childhood onset gender dysphoria.

If an autogynephilic male has become familiar with the scientific evidence, has patiently considered the potential consequences of gender transition over a non-trivial time period, and still wishes to transition, we do not oppose this decision. It is possible that many autogynephilic males are happier after gender transition. But there is no rush for any adolescent to decide.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Hamster00 · 13/07/2019 18:31

Petrol - Yes, only violent sex offenders get treated like violent sex offenders. That's my rule.

So you don't think someone incarcerated for say, credit card fraud, has the capacity to sexually abuse women then? Only "violent" offenders...

Datun · 13/07/2019 18:32

It's extraordinary that a transwoman on this thread is being ignored.

Petrol and Roses, can you respond to hamster?

LangCleg · 13/07/2019 18:33

I'd go with the latter tbh. I did notice the "convenience" with which my points were glossed over and the personal attacks continued.

Quite.