Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

My post about mansplaining/ nitpicking was only directed towards people who didn't realize birth trauma was the main point of this thread , and I've really learned a lesson i should clarify in great detail what the thread is about.
Maybe next time I should forget to include an article and just put "let's chat about birth trauma"

*Maniak
*
Sorry, I just didn't read it that way the first time. I thought she was just thinking of the moment with a dead baby and how sad it must be and how she wouldn't want a man there. Not that you were. But maybe she did mean that. She might have.

Yes that's exactly what I meant, thank you.

I mean I was thinking how sad it must be if your baby dies.
Sorry I'm really used to women-only, feminist-only spaces, where people seem to know exactly what I mean, when I say it.

I've only come back to mumsnet recently and it's really amazing to me how my meaning and intentions are completely misinterpreted and misread. I'm really not used to it. I'm thinking of coming off here, it's not good for me

Going by her account though he didn’t ask at all, he just announced he was going to examine her. I CAN believe that bit because unfortunately I’ve heard too many times of similar practice and language use. She declined the examination. If a woman declines somebody putting their fingers in her vagina than that has to be respected surely? Her body belongs to her and intimate procedures like that are done with her permission and consent only.

I found childbirth traumatic, especially the first. But I feel kind of blank and confused about it. It's weird for me to not have words for something, but I'm not really sure.

I know people are saying the article is biased, and it probably is, but it resonated with me. The reason I didn't say anything is because I've never been sure - like, if that male resident hadn't been there, would it have been okay? In my case, if the mistakes hadn't been made (female midwife, very inexperienced), would it have been essentially different? Or are those just the details we happen to recall from the sea of horror, so to speak.

If that midwife had been a man, it would be easier to hate him, but that could just be sexism. I mean, I really don't know.

Going by her account though he didn’t ask at all, he just announced he was going to examine her

I am not sure I set much store by her account. I agree with crosspelican

That complete loss of control you have in hospital, and it's all so life or death with the baby.

Sakura, I agree it surprises me too the responses here. Like why shouldn't a mother be biased, and how not to have sympathy for her? But people come from different perspectives. Maybe they relate more to the medical staff.

But people come from different perspectives.

Indeed. And one perspective that I come from is that the religious right in the US finds it convenient to try align itself with feminists on certain points, but believe me, they are not interested in advancing the rights of women; quite the opposite. So I always first consider the source. One of the reasons that I don't spend as much time on the MN feminism boards as I used to is that there is definitely a trend toward making common cause with elements of US society that want to set women's rights back 50 years or so.

Like why shouldn't a mother be biased, and how not to have sympathy for her?

I don't have sympathy for her. The title of the thread and the article are biased and inaccurate. This woman chose to have no pre- natal care because she thought she knew best. Turns out she didn't and she needed emergency care.

Even by the woman's and this web- site's own biased account what happened doesn't support the misleading headlines. She seems to have refused to co- operate with the hospital about anything because she knew her rights and she knew what was best for her baby. I doubt very much she was correct in the latter.

Much is said about "bodily autonomy" on here. This woman took that to extremes. Her rights as far as she was concerned trumped everything.

I don't have sympathy for someone who at 33 weeks pregnant puts her own hidebound ideology before the safety of her baby. Nothing which the medical staff suggested was out of the ordinary for an emergency situation. She seemed intent on being as obstructive as possible.

Look births are very medicalised in the US and they seem to have complications there. However, she was refusing everything that was a benefit to her situation. I’ve been sexually abused as a child, I’ve also been raped as an adult multiple times. But if my baby’s life was in danger and there was only a male available I’d suck it up. As horrible as that may sound why would you refuse? You and your baby could die? She hasn’t been to see anyone before now so really the lack of planning or decision making on her part is down to herself. I was lied to during the labour (I had midwives and a female doctor) but I’m glad I’m hinsight they did. I was birthing on my knees and they asked me to go onto my back because he shoulder was stuck, I complied and felt reassured. Once I was on my back and baby was out I asked for her shout for the cord to be cut quickly as it was around baby’s throat. I’m glad they didn’t tell me and I know this is so different but if they did I would have panicked and wasted time. In my opinion if baby is in danger, I’ll accept anyone trained and wanting to help be they male or female.

Yes I can understand that the website seems a bit dodgy/bias and we can’t necessarily accept her account of what happened is true.

However, you do see even on programmes like OBEM it seems totally commonplace for medical staff to just announce ‘I’m just going to examine you’ as they put on gloves. Like I said fingers in somebody’s vagina should always be a question and whether they refuse decline that should be respected.

Also don’t get the arguments about ‘students were brought in to watch but by that point all I cared about was a safe baby’..no students should never be brought in without the full and complete permission of the woman giving birth. Don’t think that is something that can even be argued against.

See I don't see why women should "suck it up" when the only professional available is a man.

Birth is not some communist idea of job creation for men. --> How can we make sure men have jobs? Let's Invent a profession that keeps men employed.

Birth should be female centric, we know it used to be in the past before midwives were slaughtered in the witchcraze.

There is absolutely no good reason why a man should take the job of a woman in obstetrics.
Plenty of women don't mind having a male professional in labour but plenty of others, like myself, would do anything to avoid a man examining them in labour. I'm not saying men can't enter the profession. But if a birthing woman wants a female professional and the only person available is a man then that man has clearly taken the place of a woman and shouldn't really be there.

Any professionals are there to provide a service to birthing women.

@Maniak
It's interesting to hear you say you don't think you have the words or the language you need to describe certain experiences.

I think this phenomenon is very common in feminism. I think it was almost impossible for example for women in porn to begin to speak out against the industry and those women were only able to do so years and years after they had left pornography and the trauma was able to settle.

So women need the power of naming experiences and that's why I won't be derailed with nitpicking because it's only when a discussion is allowed to progress, develop and move forward, that women are able to put a voice to their niggling intuitions

Also, regarding this "people come from different perspectives", I've already said that if I wanted a mainstream perspective I wouldn't have posted this on FWR. I don't want a mundane mansplainy anti woman perspective- those are available everywhere

Stop making it a man or woman thing. It’s not. If my baby or myself is at risk of dying and the only trained person was a male then why on earth would I refuse? Who benefits by refusing? What do you want? No men to be allowed to practice in this particular area? What about low numbers of female staff? That would impact many women and babies because of short staff. You cannot force someone to learn or train in a certain field so by banning men you are just creating more problems.

Men stealing women's jobs in obgyn? I don't think there's any evidence to support that statement - the complete opposite is true, obgyn is one of the specialisms that struggles to attract enough doctors in the US, male or female, and there is a looming shortage of qualified obgyns in many states.

And there it is. The real point of your thread.
If you had started with that you may have had the feminist discussion you were after.

But you started from an article where a man was involved in saving the life of a mother and child and she had felt violated.

If I were you I would try again asking theoretically whether birthing should be a female only environment.

Maniak, I'm not at all saying that you must have experienced trauma similar to that of a woman in porn. No, I'm just saying that language and definitions and the ability to name takes time to develop in feminism - and that maybe when it comes to birth we need to develop a language that echoes with what we feel reflects our experiences

StrumpersPlunkett

Not at all. I am assured that many women are fine with male professionals. I myself am not. I believe that women who are not fine with this shouldn't have it foisted on us.

Birthing women don't exist to give men jobs. In fact the job exists to help birthing women

I think the link between birth trauma and an unwanted male professional is very clear, or do I really have to spell it out

Aaarrgghhh

Why do people always have to talk about dying babies in order to justify having unwanted men in obstetrics? What about the fact that Plenty of births are fine and there is no risk of the baby dying but the mother doesn't want a man near her in labour?

So if your baby was in distress you would refuse a male if that was all that was available? So you’d be happy to just let the worst happen? I’m genuinely asking because I am baffled by what you are saying.

Or to put it another way, yes if a baby is dying you would take any professional who is available, but why should this be a man if a labouring woman prefers a woman?

I don't think a man should be presented to me. I don't even know why they're in the profession if I'm really honest. I mean I'm sure the money is good and all

Because you don’t seem to understand. By having no males in such roles we would have less people in the roles over all. It’s fine to refuse a male if your baby isn’t dying but if it were and you still refuse I think it’s silly. You cannot magic up a female member of staff with the qualifications needed just because a mother with a distressed baby wants one. Stop deliberately ignoring what I am saying.