Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

It's almost like women give birth so we can create jobs for men Shouldn't it be that people who go into the field of obstetrics are providing a service for women? And if that service includes a male violating us against our will then it perhaps needs some revisions

I agree as well that some of the stuff in that article is odd eg no pre natal checks at all apart from what she could do herself, the comment about abortion.

However, I do believe her, and believe this sort of treatment is common, it happens over here, and usa approach is v different v medicalised etc. The threats used against this women to force her to comply are simply apoallung, the escalation when she doesn't comply with their demands also appalling.

It's fine to say yes this is terrible, this is common, this is a feminist issue, this needs addressing

While also acknowledging discomfort with some of the views and statements in the piece.

You can google birth rape. It's recognized in many countries but not yet in the UK

Annoying derail? Or just inconvenient details that tend toward saying there is more than one side to this story? No, I’m not buying everything she’s selling here either. Even the title at the link is misleading, they didn’t call in DHS because she refused a male nurse but because she refused or raised objections to everything they tried to do to help safely deliver her baby. The hospital is bound by HIPAA laws and by the threat of litigation so can’t comment can they?

I’m not saying it was the most sensitive or empowering experience for her, it clearly wasn’t, but all we have here is her highly-emotional and emotive account of what was a less than perfect Gaia blessed childbirth and it’s everyone was out to get her.

She turned up at the hospital at 33 weeks gestation in labour having had no antenatal care whatsoever up to that point. Her choice, great until it isn’t great any more. They had no records of her previous medical or pregnancy history or a birth plan record in place which might have prepared them for no male attendants - of course they had to run tests and do examinations.

What else was the hospital supposed to do? Ensure she had a blissful delivery according to her now gone pearshaped plan for a no intervention natural birth (because she knew it all until it all started going wrong) or go with their standard procedures in compliance with the insurance and legal requirements they were bound by in an emergency situation? She was obstructionist to everything they tried to do for her and her baby to the point of, in their eyes, endangering the baby so yes they called in child protective services.

You seem to want a wider conversation about birthing practices and maternity healthcare which, agreed, are far from ideal but you can’t accuse people of derailing when they question details of a story you posted as your starting point.

For goodness sake this was a small hospital with one attending (consultant) and one resident (house dr) on shift not a major city obstetrics unit.

Good luck applying logic and reason to this situation.

It is an annoying derail when a person wants to discuss medical trauma in childbirth and we are forced to discuss other things instead.

That's why I said, do a google yourself, find an article you're happy with. There are plenty out there, of women having been violated by male medical professionals during childbirth: there are entire books written on the subject

honestly there needs to be a word for the nitpicking as a way of avoiding discussing the issue in question and making the discussion about something else entirely.
It's has the same effect as mansplaining

Mansplanations are thought-terminating — they are intended to and do actually stop women’s thought processes and women’s discussions in their tracks, where those processes and discussions are coming dangerously close to representing a female-centric reality, or where men’s interests are not being properly represented and catered to. The intent of mansplaining is to get women “back on track” to furthering the patriarchal agenda, and to undermine the true revolutionary potential of majority-female or female-only spaces where women are free to go to the ends of our thoughts, based on our shared reality and experiences and our hope for a better future, and our shared, sincere desire for the end of patriarchy and undermining of male power. Because of male entitlement, men are simply used to unearned deference on every issue (especially from women) and having sexual and other access to women and women’s spaces, including inside our discussions and in our heads.

factcheckme.wordpress.com/radfem-101/

honestly there needs to be a word for the nitpicking as a way of avoiding discussing the issue in question and making the discussion about something else entirely.

And there needs to be a word for people who cant be clear as to what their thread is supposed to be about. If you didn't want us to discuss this specific case you should have made clearer in your title and the OP that it was the wider issue rather than this specific case you wanted to discuss. You made the article front and centre of the thread in both your title and in the OP; instead of using it as an example of the issue at large: abuses and deficiencies in women's healthcare, you derailed your own thread.

She was obviously treated v badly though.

The gaia woo type comments are not helpful either, and are dismissive of what was done, based on a judgement of her as a person and her beliefs. Which is exactly what the medics etc in the story did to her.

MagneticSingularity

I'll hold my hands up to that. I didn't consider that people might find the violation of this woman, and her subsequent trauma. as a lesser issue than other issues in the article to the point where the violation became almost irrelevant.

I should have made it more clear that this thread was about her violation at the hands of a male medical professional.

Or rather, her refusal to agree to what she perceived as a violation, meant she was mistreated further.

Home birth is a very dangerous choice, unfortunately.

Homebirth in the US is very different to homebirth in the UK.

Relatively speaking its much safer in the UK as its regulated and midwives have a duty of care to attend.

In the US there are many places that midwives can not legally attend because they are not insured to do so.

Also if you are attempting a homebirth in the US there is a strong chance that you haven't been monitored during your pregnancy by a professional either. Possibly because you can't afford health care insurance in the first place or your insurance didn't cover you for some reason. This means you haven't had antenatal care which might pick up a problem (and strongly suggest you are too high risk for a home birth).

Lack of antenatal care is in effect the big killer rather than the birth itself.

Giving birth without the attendance of a professional only with a doula would be termed a 'freebirth' rather than a homebirth in the UK.

Deliberate freebirthing in the UK can earn you a visit from social services. Freebirthing was discussed as part of getting my election Cs and it was mentioned that some women with birth fear were known to attempt a freebirth because they wanted to avoid a hospital - because of past trauma which was driving their birth fear - and this was a situation they were keen to avoid with me. They stated they would prefer to do an elective, build a relationship with me and do things in a way I was comfortable rather than risk a freebirth situation (which actually was part of my mindset at the time though I hadn't actually told them this).

So I think freebirthing in the US needs to be seen through the lens of both economics and a woman who potentially is acting out extreme fear of birth due to a traumatic birth to give a good sense of context.

Given the medicalised nature of birth in the US and there sometimes being much more paternalistic attitudes to childbirth in the US (and less robust consent protocols in childbirth in the US) I think this particular story is telling us a few difference underlying issues being in play.

We have issues in childbirth in the UK, but they are no where near the scale of the shit going on in the US.

Your argument doesn't make sense to a feminist. All it tells me is that resources have gone into training a man who has taken a woman's job. A woman should be available to treat women in birth. Otherwise it's just men stealing women's work

And you were complaining of the thread being derailed? If you want (yet another) "men should not be gynaecologists" thread start one.

What strikes me here is how the NHS meant I could access care and that care recognised the issues surrounding birth trauma and birth fear and how women behave as a result.

This enabled me to engage with services and discuss a birth plan in details without being humiliated, patronised or belittled for my personal issues.

I know this isn't happening everywhere in the UK, but my experience certainly highlights how attitudes, experience and economics can be so wildly different to the UK.

I was reading about 'stop and drop' births in the US the other day and how there is a racist element to this because who was more likely to 'stop and drop' (a stop and drop is someone without insurance who just turns up at hospital unexpectedly.)

The article was about how the phrase encouraged poor attitudes of health care professionals and how a more clinical name (which I forget) improved care.

I'd link to it, but it was a really fascinating article that really highlighted how different the US is to the UK for child birth.

Things are not great here and could be a lot better, but by god they are better than the US.

I had 2 homebirths in Japan. I was terrified of birth in general, and was frightened to have the babies outside of hospital because I'd been indoctrinated to trust medicine. But I just couldn't shake the statistics which proved beyond all doubt that homebirths were safer and not just safer but gentler. I also specifically wanted to avoid boundary violations by a misogynistic doctor. And like we argue about transwomen, how can we tell who is a rapist, and how can we tell which doctor is a steely misogynist who has gone into the profession for his power over vulnerable women in pain? You can't tell which type you're dealing with until it's too late

Japan has a very good maternal and infant survival rate and one of the reasons I suspect is that it doesn't routinely give epidurals, which are known to cause the "cascade of intervention" that leads to a c section because they slow down the labour.

I was very happy with the midwife births I had, even though at the time I couldn't speak Japanese properly. I know what it means to have a nice birth.

I don't see why hospital births can't be nice either and I see why some women prefer the idea of having their baby in hospital. But there are just so many stories of misogynistic ob/gyns. And yes there are misogynistic midwives out there too. Women just aren't treated properly

Redtoothbrush, thank you your comments were very interesting.

I really recommend Ina May Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth. She's an American midwife and there's a fantastic photo of her with a black midwife, whose name I forget, who used to go to laboring women's houses on her bicycle because at that time black women couldn't afford hospital births.

But I just couldn't shake the statistics which proved beyond all doubt that homebirths were safer and not just safer but gentler.

I find the unconscious bias and emotion of birth means that people find it very difficult to be objective about birth stats. It doesn't help that birth stats can also often be distorted by ideological agendas.

I read a lot into just about every type of birth, their risk and the flaws in the data about risk.

The conclusion I ended up with was that there was definitely no 'safest way' to give birth in the Uk. It was very much about personal circumstances and the woman's anxiety over childbirth was definitely at least a factor. Women with high anxiety were more liable to end up with medical intervention. It could be a fulfilling prophecy situation or equally if they were of the mindset that they would be happier in a certain set of circumstances this made the experience altogether better for the mother but also carried over into being actually safer for the baby too.

The cavet about this was additional health complications which added risk too.

The birth place study identitied that babies of first time mothers were most at risk for a homebirth, but it was the safest option for mothers who had already given birth. Crucially it wasn't regarded as enough of a risk to completely discourage first time mothers either - especially since mothers were less likely to suffer birth injuries than in a consultant led unit.

People don't talk about is the difference between midwife led units and consultant units for low risk women too though.

Low risk women giving birth in a consultant led unit were at higher risk of intervention and complications - but no one knows why - there is speculation its to do with attitudes and anxiety of mothers having an effect on the progress of birth.

Yet this isn't discussed in the context of risk and homebirths get a somewhat unfair press whilst giving birth in a consultant led unit isn't ever questioned.

Its all fascinating stuff and I can bore people to death on the subject.

The point being that birth is psychological as well as physical and this is something that is hugely overlooked on both sides of the pond and there are a lot of different ideological groups who seek to exploit and misrepresent the various fears different women have for the advancement for their own cause.

I personally think that homebirth, midwife led units, consultant led units, VBs, ELCS, VBACs and every other birth plan you can think of has its own merits and risks which are very particular to each individual woman and this needs to be better understood and promoted.

What was right for me, absoluetely wouldn't be right for someone else both physically and mentally.

(gets off soapbox)

If I recall the black midwife was working illegally and would've been arrested if authorities knew she was helping women. So I'm guessing at the time that this freebirthing was just considered the norm for women of certain races and groups in America.

No your posts are fascinating RedToothBrush.

Yes there are other factors like a woman who trusts medicine probably birthing more comfortably in a hospital environment. I knew it just wouldn't be right for me because I'd heard that if you interrupt a woman in labour ( by for example barging in the room) then you can actually stop her labour and I heard this happens in hospitals, then doctors try to get the labour going again with drugs leading to another cascade of intervention. I also heard it was very important not to talk to laboring women as it forces her to use a different part of her brain when she needs to focus her primal brain on the task in hand. I watched a woman in labour on TV and the bloody doctor kept talking to her and I could tell she was struggling to respond. So even things like forcing the woman to chat can stall the labour

Japan has a good maternal and infant survival rate because women aren’t allowed to gain more than the bare minimum of weight and are actively put on diet and exercise plans — all to ensure they have a small baby (5-7 pounds is considered normal there even for non-Japanese women). Also only hospitals give epidurals and as they are expensive most Japanese women don’t use them even when they have to which explains why the country has one of the highest miscarriage rates in the western world - Don’t misquote stuff to prove your own point.

Also only hospitals give epidurals and as they are expensive most Japanese women don’t use them even when they have to which explains why the country has one of the highest miscarriage rates in the western world

First of all nobody ever "has to" have an epidural for medical purposes. Epidurals can slow down the labour leading to a c section so it's better not to have one. But women choose to have them because labour hurts a lot.

I don't think cost is an issue in Japan as the government provides a cash sum to all mothers. We get to shop for the hospitals or midwives we prefer and all hospital services are included in the cash gift. I got to stay in my midwife clinic for 5 days afterwards as they provided me with delicious vegan meals.

How is epidural related to miscarriage rates? You have an epidural in labour. Are you calling stillbirths miscarriages? How weird. Anyway as I said Japan has an excellent infant survival rate , maybe even because epidurals aren't used. It's a possibility

Just to clarify, epidural does exist in Japan but not regarded as a priority and not offered in many hospitals. Because The way the private system works is you can shop around for which hospital you want and hospitals compete for women's "custom" (by offering French cuisine for example ) so it's obviously not something in great demand from Japanese women. I think it partly a cultural thing of "grinning and bearing it".

I say midwife "clinic" but it was actually the midwife's home. I call it a homebirth because it wasn't in hospital but the first birth I had wasn't actually in my home.

I find the unconscious bias and emotion of birth means that people find it very difficult to be objective about birth stats. It doesn't help that birth stats can also often be distorted by ideological agendas

In the case of maternal fatalities due to caesarean for example you have to distinguish those being carried out in a planned, orderly manner with a fully staffed theatre and those being carried out as a last minute emergency.

Teddybear45

You make a good point about diet though. I'm not sure if keeping women's weight down is a good idea but it might certainly affect mortality rates if women are eating rubbish in pregnancy. The Japanese diet is generally good. A good midwife will watch a woman's diet