Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

And there are many women who's lives and the lives of their babies have been saved by information from scans. Not sure of your point here

Her point is she has the right to refuse them.

*Ereshkigal
*
Insisting on a same sex practitioner without any other specifics is a matter of dignity.

Yes totally. When I searched for an independent homebirth midwife in my rural prefecture in Japan I initially found just one! So this would be a case of insisting on a same sex practitioner without any other specifics.
As it happened I thought she was wonderful and we got along great. But it doesn't always work out does it, and sometimes you might need to see if another woman is a better fit.
But the basic criteria for me was dignity, yes

Here's a male midwife opining about sexism. Guess where he thinks it's coming from?

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/09/tutor-not-job-man-roofer-male-midwife-nhs

I’m 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny.

I for one always find it hilarious when I make someone uncomfortable and concerned in a position of power and they don't feel they can challenge it.

Peak guardian.

And then, could it be "unlawful" to refuse to have your smear test by a male practitioner - because he's identifies as a woman?

Oh TW and men have definitely got their sights on this one yes. That's why I keep saying it's important that women not only have the right to a female HCP abut also have the right to see another one of they have a personality clash with the first one.

This works okay with midwives but I don't really see how it can be applied to smear tests if a transwoman is the only person available .

I wouldn't know about smear tests as I haven't had one for 20 years. I don't have them. I refuse them.

But I also think plenty of men, midwives or not, don't have much empathy for women either.

Indeed, but my point is more that the idea that only women can be caring and have the skills and temperament to working in a caring career is a stereotype. A deeply sexist one at its heart too.

That doesn't really encourage men who aren't caring to buck the stereotype and it almost gives a get out for women who are utterly heartless to get away with it too.

No one wins by it.

Sakura, DH is a 6'2" well built man. I'm a very slight and petite 5'2". He didn't used to see it, but over time he's come to notice how he is treated differently by complete strangers and how he has respect without having to earn it. On the flip to that I'm frequently, patronised and belittled even on subjects I have either a professional knowledge of or a particular deep personal interest. He is now routinely shocked by it, and can see how much its damaged my confidence over the years. I find it does come mainly from men and is stronger with them, but its certainly not restricted to them either. I've been in situations where someone has deliberately tried to intimidate me, and they have backed down the very second DH appears. He just gets a totally difference response from his mere presence. Its not right, but thats my reality and its definitely not just my imagination either.

I've also had some dreadful bullying experiences from women too. Its a different thing and tends to be more in a group rather than from a single individual. But its also really affected me.

I do get it.

I think I got into a really bad state through seeing all HCP through the lens of being a threat though. My anxiety was off the scale (its still not good but I'm markedly better than I was). I think its been helpful to find ways to navigate ways through inequal power dynamics and to be reminded that some HCPs really ARE on your side, despite your paranoia. Its difficult to break out of that cycle and to give your trust though once its been broken.

You can become your own worst enemy in having the expectation that people are 'out to get you' because you behave in a defensive manner which can come across as aggressive (and somewhat unhinged if you aren't careful). And thats very difficult for anyone, no matter how well meaning, to deal with.

This is why I look at the woman in the OP and see a lot of her in the response she gave. One of the questions I was asked prior to giving birth was how I reacted if I started to panic and 'felt under threat' because I didn't feel comfortable with the situation. My response was that I can go completely nuts (like crazy lashing out nuts). They needed to know this for my sake (to keep me calm) and to also protect staff.

When you are in a fight or flight mode you can not be rational or see sense nor perhaps even calm yourself down. I've found it almost an 'out of body' experience for lack of a better phrase. Could I make informed decisions in that state? No.

I have quite a bit of sympathy for her.

But on the whole, I do think the whole situation could have been prevented and that her failure to engage earlier was a problem. HCP should have recognised what was going on a lot earlier. But that owes a lot to the American system where its so much more common for pregnant women to avoid HCPs. Here, there is so much more state involvement and social pressure that its a lot more difficult to avoid.

That woman was almost certainly acting in a state of deep seated and long term fear which had built up and was highly charged with emotion and hormones. The contempt she got for it was unacceptable, but perhaps understandable to a degree as it appears as aggressive and ungrateful. But its not what it is and thats where HCPs should know better and where training is paramount.

I reflect a lot on my own experience and find it really sad because I know I am the exception to the rule even in this country. I travelled to a hospital 50 mins away (in good traffic) There are 10 closer hospitals. It was however the only one in the north west at the time which had any perimental facilities at all (and it was technically only rated average not good). Every other authority had absoluetely none.

This has changed in the 5 years since I had DS and substantially more funding for the area has been found. This has only been because there has been a massive increase of awareness on the subject and I do credit the influence of MN a great deal for this, and women effectively demanding change.

I believe the situation in the US is a long way behind many countries in Europe for recognition of the issue because of their model of care (or lack of).

Ereshkigal I've read that article before and found it disturbing that he actually kept count of the number of women who refused to be treated by him.

I've always found it almost a vindictive note taking.

I’m 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny.

Gosh do you know what this reminds me of!

You know that NSPCC rubber wanker guy, well he used to work for Anne Summers and he tweeted that what he loved about the job was that women would get clearly uncomfortable about being approached by a man to buy their underwear.

So that male midwife and the NSPCC perv both love shocking women.

Also very interesting that he refers to women's refusal to be seen by him as sexism.

It looks like I was right in thinking male midwives will try to use the sexist card to get their hands in women's pants. That's why we must not lose our right to say no to men, and to insist on a female HCP

I've always found it almost a vindictive note taking.

Yes, it's quite an exact number!

You know that NSPCC rubber wanker guy, well he used to work for Anne Summers and he tweeted that what he loved about the job was that women would get clearly uncomfortable about being approached by a man to buy their underwear.

Wow, is that definitely legit?

Let me check sources @Ereshkigal

And then, could it be "unlawful" to refuse to have your smear test by a male practitioner - because he's identifies as a woman? Does our right to request a female HCP mean we have no right to refuse anyone who self-IDs as a woman?

Serious impacts on women's healthcare and consent right there, with just the changes in the GRA that were planned.

See I view this as a disregard for women's anxieties and deeply unprofessional because it tramples all over the balance of power between the HCP and patient. It totally undermines trust.

And thats why its so bad. It puts the HCP before the patient and the HCP already has the power.

Its unethical because it doesn't treat the patient with respect nor understand what might be driving deep seated anxieties.

I also don't think its a situation that is necessarily in the interests of the HCP, because I think of me in the 'going nuts' scenario.

Its not because they are trans, but because of a failure to recognise potential conflicts that might arise and the harm it might cause. Its totally at odds with the entire concept of 'do no harm'.

It looks like I was right in thinking male midwives will try to use the sexist card to get their hands in women's pants. That's why we must not lose our right to say no to men, and to insist on a female HCP

Sorry if I have missed something as I have skimmed alot of this, but you are joking right??

Eresh - yes, it's legit re. the NSPCC rubberman. I read it at the time. It was him writing it, firsthand.

There is a type of man (not all men, of course) who relishes in making women feel uncomfortable. Hell, surely we've all experienced it irl? The friendly guy who gets too close, is just that bit over-friendly, who says something slightly inappropriate to you, and watches your smile waver - but what he said isn't quite bad enough for you to complain or object? Just slightly uncomfortable.

Im 50 now and have encountered a certain amount of sexism in my career. I’ve had 118 people – mostly women – refuse to be cared for by me. I have had other patients who were shocked to see a man; there was one who didn’t say anything, but the look of total shock on her face was very funny. Most people assume I’m a doctor when they see me. I have to be very aware of that. My gender is technically irrelevant, but there are underlying perceptions and unconscious attitudes.

Ugh so much wrong here.

Women are entitled to decline a male midwife. I hate the wording of ‘refuse’ instead of decline, very carefully chosen language. He’s suggesting there is something wrong with women who do this and they have no just reason.

And it’s all about how it makes HIM feel and his feelings, not the rights and dignity of the women who aren’t comfortable with him.

Sorry if I have missed something as I have skimmed alot of this, but you are joking right?

Oh, she's not, you say you've skimmed the thread - there's some major speak of they're all in it for dodgy reasons.
Although we're back to toning it down a tad now (for now) but it's all there to see throughout the thread.

SweetMelodies - It's that complete lack of understanding as to why a woman might be uncomfortable - or even traumatised, by him, a male midwife. Zero understanding or compassion. Either a reason to moan about women for refusing him, or laughing at the look on her face.

His "gender" (sex) is not irrelevant at all. Women are entitled to same-sex intimate care.

@Ereshkigal

Found this and screenshotted it, I can search for more if you like

And it’s all about how it makes HIM feel and his feelings, not the rights and dignity of the women who aren’t comfortable with him.

It really shows how they don't see women as people to me

Here's an article about freebirthing / social services and women's rights in the UK which is particularly relevant to the OP.

Its an interesting read.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/oct/22/hounded-for-giving-birth-outside-the-system

It really shows how they don't see women as people to me

"They?" What, all of them? Even you have people on this thread telling you about the great care they've had from some?

RTB - fascinating and shocking article.

This excerpt - by a man who gets it - (yes, I know they do exist):

While some people struggle to understand the motivation of those whose choices differ from the norm, Simon Mehigan, deputy director of midwifery at Chelsea and Westminster hospital in London, does not. “Women don’t take decisions around their pregnancy and birth lightly,” he says.

In more than 20 years as a midwife, he has met women whose decisions have been considered inappropriate by other professionals, but he has “yet to meet one whose decision-making process wasn’t rational or sensible, with each having undertaken their own research and weighed up all the advice and guidance they have been given”.

“The skill is to accept that ultimately it is not the health professionals’ decision to own,” says Mehigan.

Is very insightful. Women are - a lot of the time - treated as if they don't know what's best for them, as if they can't be relied upon to make a rational decision about their own healthcare, their own childbirth.

The attitude of "threaten them with social services" and even the police just demonstrates this. Errant, non-compliant women, who must be threatened until they comply. So much wrong with this.

Found this and screenshotted it, I can search for more if you like

Thank you. Wow nasty fucking creep.

Cases such as Elle, Sarah and Laura’s are not aberrations and, though they represent the extreme end of a complex problem, they are symptomatic of a culture and maternity system that can be unfriendly, even punitive to pregnant women.

Combined with an overstretched maternity system in which stress and bullying is rife among staff, and where fear of litigation and professional sanctions meets a lack of understanding of women’s rights, it can make for a toxic cocktail that damages new families at an intense and vulnerable time.

Very relevant.