Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

There is a type of man (not all men, of course) who relishes in making women feel uncomfortable. Hell, surely we've all experienced it irl?

Absolutely. I naively didn't imagine that, because he's gay. I see it as quite a sexual thing.

It's the law, goosefoot. It's not a tiny screenshot - it's the GMC legal guidance.

That is not how the law works. Several people have pointed this out on the thread, that it is not that simple. That doctors can be held legally accountable for doing nothing even if the patient refuses consent, in some kinds of situations. the training for health professionals on these things go well beyond one sentence.

It's like you are refusing to engage with anything being said.

Goosefoot, I don't know of any cases of doctor's being held 'legally accountable' if a patient dies having refused treatment.

Case law seems to be medical negligence cases where a doctor seems to be more at risk of being prosecuted for not ensuring consent for treatment, or explaining the risks of treatment properly.

One such ruling: An adult person of sound mind is entitled to decide which, if any, of the available forms of treatment to undergo, and her consent must be obtained before treatment interfering with her bodily integrity is undertaken. The doctor is therefore under a duty to take reasonable care to ensure that the patient is aware of any material risks involved in any recommended treatment

So I can only reiterate - that a patient has the absolute legal and moral right to refuse treatment, as long as they have the capacity to do so - and that I agree with this.

GMC guidelines are clear - a doctor cannot treat a patient with capacity without consent.

Is legal guidance law? Like guidelines for babies are advisable to follow but they aren’t set in stone. I think anyone should be able to refuse medical treatment. Even at a cost to themselves and their baby. However, in an emergency do those rights count? For example, my baby was in hospital for a long time, they had to discuss with us everything that they did to her except in an emergency. So my daughter had a third arrest and needed to be placed on an oscillator and have her trachy removed and have a nasal breathing tube inserted, they couldn’t ask my permission for anything because it was an emergency. I know it’s so different for children but I think it applies to pregnant women too. Your baby is also a patient once you go into labour, in an emergency they need to put the child before the parent, it’s always been like this. Look at the situation with Charlie, the court had to step in. I wanted to turn my daughters machines off but the doctors (male) wouldn’t be happy with that, they weren’t ready to give up on her yet. Fair enough, we instead put her down as DNR, she never had an arrest again and stayed alive for a transplant. If baby is in distress then surely the baby is also a patient and therefore rights etc kind of go out of the window. It’s not difficult to understand, surely.

From what I've read, Case Law seems to support that a need for consent trumps all - as long as the patient has capacity. So, for example, yes, they could treat your baby in an emergency, but if you weren't happy with them treating your daughter without consent, you may have had a case for medical negligence for failing to gain your consent.

In the case of the OP, where a pregnant woman with capacity is verbally clearly refusing treatment, then no, doctors absolutely cannot treat them, even if the baby comes to harm. All they can do is warn the patient of the risks, or (rarely) apply to a court to decide that the woman should be forced to have treatment - but I don't believe the outcomes of those are generally successful. Patient autonomy is paramount.

A pregnant woman is seen as different to a parent and born child, she still has the right to decline anything because it’s her body.

I get that yeah, still inside her so not it’s own person yet really. I just thought that being in actual labour meant the baby is soon to be its own patient. It’s a tricky one then. I think the doctors did what they thought was best given my daughters circumstances, they genuinely knew better and kept us informed for every step unless of course it was an emergency. Even when my daughter went into arrest someone was sent to call us immediately while they dealt with the situation. I thank them for my daughter still being here. They still adore her now and love seeing how big and clever she has gotten. I almost fell in love with her doctor purely because he diagnosed her and kept her alive until transplant. I also felt the same way towards her dietician who was female lol. Sort of went on a tangent there but it seems tricky for medical staff if a woman in labour refuses all treatment, has never been to see anyone regarding the pregnancy and then lists off a load of demands that no one was even slightly prepared for.

Argghhhh, you should read the article that RedToothBrush posted last night, it's a really good read about a woman's legal rights in pregnancy.

Glad your daughter's doing so well, must have been an awful time.

I think turning off a baby's life support machine is a different matter, because it ends life. So if doctors make the clinical decision that it is in the best interests of the baby, then they will ask the parent for consent. If the parent declines, I think the doctors would have to apply to court for a judge's decision before they could switch off the machine.

If the parent wants life support switched off, and doctors don't agree, I'm not sure a doctor can be forced to do it - because they'd be ending life - which I don't think anyone can force a doctor to do.

Complex moral and legal issues for sure.

Definitely complex and I’d never have forced a doctor to end a life they didn’t want to. They were great and explained their reasoning for not being comfortable etc and then suggested a DNR. I think we got lucky and had an amazing team for my daughter no matter where we had to move to, different wards, hospitals etc.

I think turning off a baby's life support machine is a different matter, because it ends life. So if doctors make the clinical decision that it is in the best interests of the baby, then they will ask the parent for consent. If the parent declines, I think the doctors would have to apply to court for a judge's decision before they could switch off the machine.

I've heard of this happening and basically of doctors often wanting it both ways.

They want to impose and force medical care on those who don't want it, just like Nazis, and they also want to refuse medical care to babies on life support by turning off the machine against the parents wishes.

I really hate them.

You hate all doctors now?

Can I just say my absolute worst nightmare is that doctors would find an excuse to declare me mentally incompetent so they could go ahead with some unwanted surgery that I absolutely refused because I just wanted to be left to die quickly and in peace.m

A husband of a friend of mine was recently diagnosed with cancer. He was given all sorts of life prolonging treatment which he happily wanted and went along with. However what struck me was that he was given a drastic "life saving" operation involving the removal of half his liver, and by accident they punctured his lung in the process. Well accidents happen I guess . But anyway as a direct result of the liver removal he turned completely yellow, his eyes and skin, his legs and other parts of his anatomy swelled up, he had a colostomy bag and his pain and suffering exponentially increased after the operation. He died a few weeks later . Literally what was the point in the surgery other than increasing his pain and suffering and making sure he died in an inhuman amount of pain that. It was his choice like I say. But it's definitely not for me

Grammar Teacher
I hate ones who play god

You hate all doctors now?

Why aren't you interested in the male midwife we just talked about who was thrilled he used to upset and shock women? Exactly like the NSPCC perv who said the best bit about his Ann summers job was making women uncomfortable. The best bit

I come on here today to find the thread had been derailed onto whether I like doctors or not. Why

I'm interested in all rubbish HCPs being removed. I was just commenting on what you just posted. I didn't pluck the comment from nowhere.
You seem to have quite negative views of healthcare in general and it would be interesting to know why as it might explain why our views are so different

Birthrights.org.uk is a good organisation for anyone who has concerns / queries about their rights in the UK whilst pregnant.

They have a number of resources and services and raise awareness.

They also look at the state of woman centred care in the UK. They recently filed a report to the UN about how pregnant women are treated, which is available on their website here:

www.birthrights.org.uk/2019/05/23/birthrights-and-partners-submit-evidence-to-the-un/
Birthrights and partners submit evidence to the UN

Healthcare is masculinized. There is a long tradition of it being male dominated. I don't have a very high opinion of men, that's all. I've seen what passes for male scientific experiments , in the name of "study", science and medicine and so many of the things they have done seem so pointless, unnecessary and not really relevant.
Like all the doctors who were convinced that if they did a scan to measure the baby then measured the woman's pelvis they could predict if the baby would come out and if they thought it couldn't they'd do a c section because they didnt know that the pelvis moves in birth and that it loosens in pregnancy thanks to the hormones.Simply didn't know.
Any run of the mill midwife could've told them that and some midwives wrote publications trying to advise ob/gyns that they should be aware of this because they couldn't believe the dumbfuckery that was passing for medicine in the field of childbirth

Sakura my birth fear centred on a pathological distrust of all HCPs. I'm definitely still not over it but I'm a hell of a lot better than I was. It's why am obsessive about medical consent and ethics.

You can't live like though as it just ends up in avoidance type behaviour which can put your health at risk. It's not a good place to be. You have to build relationships with HCP and develop trust with them.

I fully appreciate how hard this is, once trust has been broken.

I'd also encourage you to read about individuals and organisations which are working to improve this and to stop the imbalance of power within the doctor patient relationship to see that whilst there are institutional problems, there are people who recognise those issues and are actively working to correct them. I'd recommend the above organisation and someone like Dr Margaret McCartney.

Be mindful of only reading stories like the one you linked to in your OP, as it's not healthy and only reinforcing your negative mindset by effectively being like an echo chamber. Challenge yourself to read stories that go counter to your beliefs.

It's not all bad out there. It could be better, but in order to achieve that you have to remove your own emotional response and develop a rational one which is based in substance of how to change not fear and avoidance strategies.

What @RedToothBrush said

@RedToothBrush

Are you trying to suggest I "get over" my mistrust of men?
Cause I find that incredibly patronizing on a feminist forum. Do you also suggest women to get over their complexes about men On other threads? Like ones about DV for example?

Cause like I've been saying I want to advocate for all female units where the consultants/surgeons are women. I'm not advocating for avoidance of medicine.

I'm saying I have a lot to problems with it and I have examples of wanting to avoid forced surgery when I'm dying ( which was a derail) but I'm all for intervention when it's necessary. Otherwise why would I be on here trying to talk about improving things for women I hospitals? I'd just have a thread Saying "freebirth or nothing. The End.

It's literally infuriating when someone is trying to talk about misogyny in childbirth and gets told they need to overcome their trust "issues"

I mean really wtf

Im calling you out on your antifeminism for that point you just made Redtoothbrush

Fuming

I am genuinely shocked by some of the attitudes posted on this thread, and am wary to post, as I am sure it will be belittled and dismissed, as I have 'happily complied' with the male hcps who have saved my life, and the male hcps who saved my son's life, which in turn, I am sure somehow makes me complicit in reducing the numbers of female hcps.

Any way, I'll take that on the chin to just say that there have been some fascinating posts on here and RedToothbrush's post of Wed 17-Jul-19 13:24:38....is spot on.

Is that what the male midwife does? Pretends to be a little bit feminist or a little bit woman friendly so the woman thinks oh this one is someone like me, someone I can trust, then BAM with the delivery of gems like "it's all in your mind" you need to get over your mistrust of men
despite all the evidence and personal experiences telling you you should definitely not trust them as far as you can throw them.