Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

[sakura184]

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

ZebrasAreBras I didn’t say feminist are men haters but sure aren’t making t easy to argue against those that do think that way. How can you not understand what is being typed?

I’ll hold my hands up here. I didn’t realise rapey was a valid term. Given everything a certain few posters are saying is ridiculous, I wrongly assumed this was too.

"It’s women like the two(?) on this thread that gives feminism the man hating tag."

So you were just saying women like me give feminism it's man hating tag. Ah, that's ok then!

I must say, it's been a while since I had the word "manhater" (more or less) thrown at me. Takes me back to the good old days of the MRA

These days it's normally "Transphobe" or "terf" - which amounts to a similar thing, if you think about it

Anyway, I think men who want to coerce women into receiving intimate care from them, by getting women to "understand" that their preferences for a woman are sexist, or man hating, is very very rapey

Anyway, I think men who want to coerce women into receiving intimate care from them, by getting women to "understand" that their preferences for a woman are sexist, is very very rapey

Dear God, how on earth did you jump to this conclusion?

Honestly you are determined to demonise a man who I've paraphrased and you have no idea who he is. And you are claiming all sorts about him.

I'm bloody glad I havent named him now cos by god you've really done a defamation of character based on nothing but his sex, claiming he is unprofessional on the basis of it. Its almost setting out to complain and destroy the career such is the extent of the tone.

I give up. You don't want to help or understand women with birth fear. You just want to read things which echo what you already think to reaffirm your own anxieties as being justified. That's really what this thread and the selection of the case in the OP was about. With a view to saying men shouldnt treat women in healthcare.

If only it were that simple and that would be a magic solution to the problems there are out there in maternity.

Do you really think maternity units would have all these problems solved just by banning men? Cos honestly that seems to be the mentally I'm seeing rather than a pragmatic and honest assessment of misogynistic attitudes and how they affect care.

There are a huge amount of problems with maternity. Evangelical attitudes to homebirth and banning men aren't going to solve them. You've repeated ignorant and sexist tropes about ELCS and pain rather than think about how abuse and trauma (which you've gone on about in relation to why we shouldn't have male midwives and homebirth but failed to even think that might be influencing women who want an ELCS too).

It's all part of the 'a real woman' crap that has actively been a real obstacle to myself and many others I've seen post on MN in the past.

It's toxic. Utterly toxic.

Women centred care is about treating women as individuals with a very diverse range of needs and expectations and that's where it begins and ends.

Even when a man is advocating for women he is still just a porn addicted rapist and this should be banned. Craziness. You CAN refuse a male if you want but why take staff from other people? We need more staff, not less.

It's all part of the 'a real woman' crap that has actively been a real obstacle to myself and many others I've seen post on MN in the past.

Not from me! I had very medically managed births. Hated them, had a horrible time, but will argue for a woman's right to choose who treats her, her right to refuse treatment, her right to a female only environment if she needs it.

Thing is, female only environments are bloody hard to come by, at the best of times, and seem to be under threat more than ever these days. I only managed a female only environment for one out my three births. And it was easily the best birth of the three.

@RedToothBrush

I like your posts. I feel you add to the conversation. But you keep saying I want to ban men and I've said repeatedly that although downthread I originally said that, because I thought it's what women wanted, I've since learned that some women want men and that's fine by me.

But even though I respect women's preference for men, it doesn't mean I, personally, like or understand men's motivations for entering the field. I think it's absolutely vital that feminists are critical of men. I mean it's what we do.

I will also fight tooth and nail for women's right to have a same sex HCP, should she prefer. I also think, as feminists, we should be aware of women being coerced into accepting men. I think, too, that male midwives might be a new thing and that they may try and shoulder themselves into the field. I was shamed repeatedly for stating my own preference for women on this thread.

And I have to say, that that midwife talking about women overcoming their fear and him having to go to lengths to get women to accept him, because they don't usually, because of sexism, does sound rapey.

It doesn't matter what I think, it is her right to refuse any medical treatment. Here, and in the USA.

It does matter, because I'm asking you. It seems your answer is yes, that is an acceptable outcome.

In terms of the law, it's not that clear that refusal of treatment is that absolute. In some cases it can be, but by no means in all.

But for yourself, you would put no blame on the doctors or hospital in this scenario, it was just the choice of the woman to refuse care leading to her death.

Goosefoot, it's the law - quite simply, medical staff cannot force human beings with capacity to undergo medical treatment against their will.

Consent matters.

Jesus, I do not want to live in a society where medical staff can force me to have treatment against my will - that goes against my human rights, my bodily autonomy.

I would not consider it the medical profession's fault if somebody died having refused treatment - and this has happened - I think the medical profession's responsibility is to ensure that the patient has a full understanding of the implications and risks of refusing treatment.

And I have to say, that that midwife talking about women overcoming their fear and him having to go to lengths to get women to accept him, because they don't usually, because of sexism, does sound rapey.

So even when a man recognises that he does have to try a little harder when around women and understands they have fear around birth, he is still in the wrong and is only doing so for nefarious reasons.

@ZebrasAreBras

I'm completely with you on forced medical procedures. I was cheering on that woman who took those doctors to court because she wanted to die in peace and knew her rights. It's a totally different topic ( this thread is being perpetually derailed) but I think forced medical procedures remind me of the Nazis

So even when a man recognises that he does have to try a little harder when around women and understands they have fear around birth, he is still in the wrong and is only doing so for nefarious reasons.*

I've said, I have no idea what men's motives are or why they're there. I don't want them around me.

It's him saying he had to fight sexism that was a massive big flag for me. Is sexism, for him, a woman wanting a female HCP?

red flag

Jesus, I do not want to live in a society where medical staff can force me to have treatment against my will - that goes against my human rights, my bodily autonomy.

I would not consider it the medical profession's fault if somebody died having refused treatment - and this has happened - I think the medical profession's responsibility is to ensure that the patient has a full understanding of the implications and risks of refusing treatment

No absolutely not, and I personally have real problems with just how difficult opts outs for cervical screening are. The narrative on that is always about how women are too embarrassed which really jnfantilising. There's also a conflict of interest GP surgeries have for hitting targets in order to get funding. The whole thing is based on the assumption that no woman wouldn't actively make an informed choice not to have one and treats them as cash cows which risks undermining the principle of undue pressure which negates freely given consent.

My last gp practice were dreadfully aggressive on this, and that did a lot to damage my trust and doctor patient relationship. This had a knock on effect with other areas of my health.

Equally as I explained up thread as a flip to that, realistically refusals for life saving treatment in emergency situations are very difficult for doctors to accept without a prior notification of an expressed wish. It's really difficult judgement call that a doctor has to make and the default if in any doubt about whether the patient is fulling able to consent and is informed at to the consequences HAS to be to interfere. Simply because of if they get it wrong the patient is dead.

I do think as a rule the ethics of medical consent are good in the uk, but there are areas where it falls down and unfortunately this seems to have a particular effect on women because of socialisation and status in society. Maternity care seems to have particular problems with it.

I always want DH with me for medical consultations because of past experience and not feeling able to sufficely ask questions or challenge what I'm told if I'm in any way unhappy. I just don't feel assertive enough and confident enough on my own.

DH has been shocked at the way people respond differently to him as a 6'2" Well built male compared to my 5'2" petite self in just about every daily life situation. It's been a real eye-opener to him to witness. And I think the problem is particularly acute in health care situations because of the power dynamics.

But I digress from the thread.

Proper consent in health is a really big deal to me though.

It's him saying he had to fight sexism that was a massive big flag for me. Is sexism, for him, a woman wanting a female HCP?

And I've already said it was a comment I've paraphrased and you've jumped on and twisted. And keep doing. That's grossly unfair to the guy. It's a complete misrepresentation and he's not here to defend himself.

Redtoothbrush

It's not even about him anymore. I've forgotten about him. But I'm just considering , in general, the notion that men might cry sexism in the field of midwifery and the only reason I can think of is that women want female midwives

It's not even about him anymore. I've forgotten about him

You literally said it about him.
You are changing and twisting everything.

But I'm just considering , in general,

No you weren't. You said it about the very guy Toothbrush was until you got rightly called out on it.
Now it's "in general."
No, it's not.
I think you think we can't read

Lol no. You haven’t forgotten him as you have mentioned him so many times to assume he is a bad person.

Proper consent in health is a really big deal to me though.

Absolutely.

RTB - I appreciate your posts too.

I think giving birth is such a very personal, possibly traumatic, and uniquely female experience to go through, and each woman will have a different experience.

My own 3 births were all different - but two of them were actually traumatic. And I had issues with consent for procedures and examinations for all of them. Won't bore you with all the details - but I could write a book of my three birth stories. The single worst thing for me was feeling out of control, and I had that feeling a lot. I actually felt I was seen as nothing but a vessel for a baby on a few occasions, and I felt ignored and belittled several times. By HCPs of both sexes, I admit.

The two that were traumatic had the men in the room with me - and were there because they difficult births, rather than the men being there causing the births to be traumatic...but them being there did increase the trauma if I'm honest. I didn't want any men in the room with me except DH, and just them being here made me feel uncomfortable and self-conscious.

The easiest by far was the one with 3 women & DH in the room with me when delivering, and a woman stitching me up.

My fight is for women to have female-only care when they need it - that is it. I wouldn't want a single incident of a woman being told "we've only got John on duty, who is free tonight - so...." and for a woman to feel pressured into having a male midwife.

Lol no. You haven’t forgotten him as you have mentioned him so many times to assume he is a bad person

Exactly, I mean WTF.
Thank God the rest of the thread is in agreement when it comes to this type of shit this time, because on some threads it's usually a majority trying to make you question yourself or say they didn't mean something when they did.
It's absolutely blatant on this thread.

I was shamed repeatedly for stating my own preference for women on this thread

Again, no you weren't, everyone said of course you are entitled to prefer women. Stop lying. Twisting.

@sakura184

In non emergency situations it's fine to request a woman, and in the U.K. you are entitled to a female chaperone if it's a male hcp and no female is available but in emergencies where life and death are at stake and it's essential for speed, preference cannot always be upheld, which was in the case of the original article. Whether enough women are in senior roles in the heathcare sector is a different matter altogether, but I was very reassured when I met my (male) obgyn following complication, the fact he was a professor, that he saved my grandmothers life 12 years prior and remembered me (we didn't share a surname so he really did) put me at ease, he also told me the midwife and junior dr worried over nothing!