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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Birthing mother abused for refusing male nurse

999 replies

sakura184 · 12/07/2019 01:28

This kind of crap is why I opted for homebirths

pjmedia.com/parenting/colorado-doula-and-assault-survivor-investigated-by-dhs-for-refusing-male-nurse-during-birth/

OP posts:
GrammarTeacher · 15/07/2019 12:16

I am actually genuinely concerned for you if your paranoia is that bad. I work in a boys school. There are indeed issues with toxic masculinity that affect us all, but this is just mad. And why stop at ob/gyn? Would you be unhappy to be treated by a male doctor/nurse just in case they're evil? That is an awful way to go through life and it's just not necessary.
There are many issues surrounding equality but seeing evil when there isn't any is just exhausting. It also distracts from where the real enemy of women actually is (clue: they currently hold or are about to hold leadership positions).

Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 12:19

These days the acceptable narrative is " The most important/the only important thing is the delivery of a healthy baby" and anyone who talks about a woman centred birthing experience is dismissed as being almost selfish. Natural, home birthers are treated and talked about in the way that anti-vaxxers are.

What does this mean? Surely for any woman the baby’s health is important. If it takes the only male there to help deliver the baby what is the alternative if the mother doesn’t want a male there? Do we just stand around and watch her suffer until she and the baby dies? Is that what we should do? I’m being serious here, if a woman only wants another woman to deliver her baby and there is no other woman available, do we send her away? Do we stand and watch as she and the baby struggles?

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:20

I don't get what you're saying. You want to impose male ob/gyns and male midwives on women who explicit want female care?

what you want is already happening. All over the place.

And women who object are too sensitive, unreasonable, should just suck it up, stop it with the silly gender preferences, NAMALT

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sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:22

@Aaarrgghhh

No we've covered this. Please read the thread. Male ob/gyns have a habit of saying "well the baby is fine what more do you want"

And women and midwives are trying to say that this is not how it has to be.

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Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 12:23

Also, just to add. I am a woman, I watch porn. If I was a trained midwife would that be a deal breaker? Seeing as all men in your opinion that watch porn are clearly getting turned on by a stretched vagina, possibly torn and with a head coming out of it, do they plan on raping you while you give birth or once the baby is out?

GrammarTeacher · 15/07/2019 12:25

No people have a habit of saying that. In and out of healthcare. And it's a stupid thing to say for lots of reasons.
And yes, if it came down to life and death then yes, I would 'force' treatment.
Nothing necessarily woo about home births.

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:26

Can people just please not come on here to call me names. Aaaaargh and Grammar have both come on here name calling.
Go on George's thread and express your views about birth there. Ignore me.

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Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 12:26

I don’t even think you know what you are talking about. Your points are silly and I don’t understand them. All men are evil and shouldn’t be anywhere near women. That’s all I’m hearing from your posts.

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:27

@Aaarrgghhh

You're a porn watcher. You think porn is fine. Great 👍

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Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 12:29

See you’re wrong. I have watched and occasionally do but I don’t think it’s fine per se. Point is would you refuse me delivering your baby if you knew that? Not that you would know that. But anyway, does a male midwife or doctor etc plan on raping you during the birth or after?

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:34

Care of the birthing mother is intrinsic to midwife care. This just isn't true for physician led care, which is all about the baby. Or I would even go so far as to say just about the baby. That's about as patriarchal as it gets, folks. Women are the vessels or carriers for the surgeon or physicians perfect product. This is literally the philosophy of many men Involved in birth, I've read what they have to say. I have been appalled by it. I am grateful to the midwives and female consultants who have been fighting misogyny in this field.

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sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:35

If I knew my midwife was a porn watcher if know she was a raging handmaiden and would refuse her. Ive said below women need a rapport with their midwife in pregnancy so if there are any personality clashes she can request another one

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Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 12:49

I’m a handmaiden now? Oh my goodness that is hilarious. Thank you so much for the laugh. I’d say I’m quite the feminist but I’m not a complete man hater. I don’t think hating men makes you the ultimate feminist but sure, crack on lol. Still haven’t answered my question in regards to when a man wants to rape a woman during the birth, before, after? Maybe during because he’s just getting so turned on by that stretched and swollen vagina he simply cannot control himself. Hmm

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:52

@Aaarrgghhh

You're a porn watcher . I've just started another thread on porn, by all means check it out

OP posts:
sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:54

Maybe during because he’s just getting so turned on by that stretched and swollen vagina he simply cannot control himself.

Jesus Christ, they're all coming out of the woodwork.
You think men do a pretty vagina check before they rape?
What are you even talking about

OP posts:
sakura184 · 15/07/2019 12:55

Maybe during because he’s just getting so turned on by that stretched and swollen vagina he simply cannot control himself.

You make a good point though. He's probably thinking "ewww gross I wouldn't even rape that"

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Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 13:06

Of course they don’t do a pretty vagina check, are you seriously this hard of understanding? You claim men are evil and dangerous and this mostly is down to porn so, I am asking, why the fuck would a man in a hospital, rape a woman who is literally pushing a baby out of her vagina? Is this what you are convinced will happen? In a room full of women assisting another woman to give birth? That if a male member of staff is needed that he shouldn’t be allowed to help (therefore letting mother and baby die) because he might rape a woman who is giving birth, do tell me when he is more likely to rape. Is it before delivery? During or after?

Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 13:08

What do you mean by coming out of the woodwork? I’ve been raped multiple times by different men and was sexually assaulted as a child for ten years. So please, tell me how awful I am because I don’t tar every man with the same brush. Maybe my kids dad shouldn’t be left alone with them incase he does something nefarious. You know, because all men are evil and want to rape every female out there.

bugeyedbarber · 15/07/2019 13:10

Oh come off it OP.

This thread kept me awake last night as I read during a bout of insomnia GrinYou have thoughtful and considered posters (especially @redbrush who is one of the most sensible MNetters there is out there) challenging your POV (which incidentally changed number of times during the discussion depending on which corner you painted yourself into as the discussion progressed)

That article you started the discussion with had red flags of serious bias all over it including one with the highly emotive one of marrying anti-vaccine sentiment (correlates highly with refusal of vit k injections) with anti-abortion one for starters and it was presented as this is why you personally opt for home births. It was sensible to call that out.

Secondly, the posters simply pointed out that there is more to that story that meets the eye and that various other factors were at play. I appreciated posts by @GeorgeFayne which shed light on these factors and added the much needed nuance. Not excusing anything, just providing context.

FWIW, I had a home birth - first baby at 40 but in no way do I think that it is for everyone or that medicine or indeed men in medicine need to be banned completely on the basis that their presence is inherently mysoginistic as you seem to dogmatically state throughout the thread. My child was delivered beautifully by a child-free midwife by the way.

Incidentally @RedToothBrush - absolutely agree re elective CS and mental health. I was extremely birth anxious and requested elective. It was combo of my anxiety and trauma from a very painful natural miscarriage 2 years prior. It was thanks to my dedicated MWs with whom I had continuity of care (which is considered to be the gold standard care option that us meant to be rolled out as standard maternity care ) that this anxiety was unpicked and addressed so that I ended up at wanting vaginal birth myself. There were issues with the after care where my all female MW team minimised and dismissed my concerns and DD ended up in NICU but that’s a separate topic in itself.

Also, someone mentioned Poland as a country with very low maternal mortality.

I happen to be of Polish heritage and I have some idea about how the system works there with one of the best outcomes for maternal mortality in the world.

Birth in Poland is medicalised too. The rate of CS is high, higher than in UK and US. Anecdotally I can say the following:

Pregnant woman will see a gyno every 4 weeks and then every 2 weeks where typically bloods will be taken and additional scans will be conducted which catches potential issues quicker.

It is not unusual for women to be signed off work at full pay 6 months in on the basis of tiredness or any other pregnancy issue. It is also not uncommon for women to be sent to hospital to lie flat on their back if there is an issue with pregnancy like shortened cervix for example. It is NOT so in the UK where often after the 20 week scan, unless you have adverse symptoms or a preexisting condition, you will be only seeing a midwife every few weeks until the day you are giving birth.

The whole societal attitude in Poland is quite paternalistic in a sense that is that pregnant woman must take it easy. I lost the count of number of times where I was told not to carry anything heavy (we are talking shopping bag) and be careful on the stairs, even by strangers.

Elective csection is seen as a completely sensible first option and if you are having issues with accessing it, you can easily go private and it’s usually covered by your work insurance. The price, if it’s not covered is not prohibitive and people are prepared to pay.

The rate of c sections is higher than in the US and higher than in the UK. I cannot find data on elective v EMCS but instinctively I’d say it’s driven by elective based on very unscientific fact that of people I know personally, out of 6 mothers three had c sections and all were elective. My homebirth caused an enormous consternation among the Polish side of my family.

Conclusions from the above? In a medicalised/paternalistic setting the outcomes for mothers can be better than in more demedicalised settings. And interestingly, Poland has incredibly restrictive abortion laws and the populist government is as anti feminist as it gets yet they seem get maternal care right looking at stats. Why? God knows without looking into it in great detail and considering correlation and causality and all possible factors. Which is why banging on about banning men in maternity care and demonising medical approach to birth is IMHO simplistic and myopic.

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 13:15

I suppose you've pointed out the difference between a porn watching rapist and one who doesn't watch porn ( although I've heard there's a link between porn watching and rape). The garden variety rapist would just get on with raping and the porn watching rapist would expect the vulva to meet certain standards and possibly get annoyed (?) grossed out (?) if it didn't. Like if it was covered in hair or something like that idk

OP posts:
sakura184 · 15/07/2019 13:21

@bugeyedbarber
Thank you for your contribution to the thread. I like you, in no way proscribe homebirthing for women who don't want it. I think that's what they call a straw man (?) .

Im saying that the cascade of intervention is real and I know this not just because midwives talk about it but because women talk about being pressured into epidurals in hospital. So Homebirths it should be easy to request and available for women with healthy pregnancies who do want to avoid a medicalized birth: some midwives specialize in risky births for home birth, like VBAC, twins and breech. This should be offered to women who want it

and that women who want hospital births should be entitled to request all female staff. And that hospital births should be better overall because it seems like there's a misogyny problem in them

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 15/07/2019 13:22

OK, I just RTFT (and the article)

Points

= seems a very heavily biased article to me (so not sure how seriously to take her account, not saying that she doesn't have a right to not see a male, of course she does)
Sounds to me like she was just blocking them at nearly every turn over everything though so no wonder they were concerned when they just wanted to help her when she came in.

= You state that no men should be in the field as they're all stealing the women's jobs, so when you say "opt in" how do you propose that then if you had your way you'd have chucked them all out? Genuine question

= Also when on the thread I see comment from in the past comments about males calling you out on blatant man hating you really, really need to step back and think a minute lol

=

Aaarrgghhh · 15/07/2019 13:28

Absolutely delusional. What a hard life you must live. Always cowering away from any man you see. Jeez, I couldn’t live like that and I’ve enough of a reason to.

sakura184 · 15/07/2019 13:30

@Aaarrgghhh

You've been a helpful addition to this thread, giving an insight into how a pornsick ob/gyn might regard an unknown woman's vagina

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RosesAndRaindrops · 15/07/2019 13:32

You're the one who started going on about how a vagina looks to them in the first place though Confused Grin
I need to get out more in the next few days, this place is mashing my head lately lol

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