Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The impact of hearing trans widows stories?

169 replies

TinselAngel · 04/07/2019 10:21

I know a lot of FWR contributors don't want to comment on the trans widows' threads here, as they are support threads, so I thought it would be useful to have a separate thread to discuss if hearing trans widow's stories has had an impact on your view of late transitioning males and the support (or otherwise) they should revive from their wives? Or on any other gender issues?

I'd be interested to hear your views, and think it might encourage any lurkers who are in this situation to feel able to post on the current trans widows thread.

This is also inspired by Jessica's thread considering whether what we do is worth it!

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 06/07/2019 01:00

That article is from 1998
It is estimated that some 100 hundred women per year are delivered into psychiatric care as a direct result of their experiences. Many remain silent, too traumatised to describe what has happened to them. It is my intention to try to describe hitherto unrecognised mechanisms at work within a relationship where Gender Dysphoria is present, which reinforce female disempowerment and which can ultimately destroy their psychological well being.

Think of the numbers now.

Also this doesn't include children or siblings who may feel similar types of problems.

I suffered a breakdown not long after my brother transitioned. I really struggled to cope and felt it was definitely directly related. I still have utterly dreadful anxiety and lack of confidence.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/07/2019 08:34

crikey, that women of the beaumont society article ( www.gender.org.uk/conf/1998/diana.htm )

The commonest complaint that most affects wives is when the spouse openly and persistently apes, mimics, copies or shadows their wife's actions

as Christine Benvenuto said in the Guardian article, it's the stuff of psychological thrillers, or even horror films.

LangCleg · 06/07/2019 09:16

Think of the numbers now.

My immediate thought also.

If that article doesn't show how important and necessary the transwidows thread is, nothing will. 1998. FFS.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/07/2019 09:33

Expecting to fundamentally change oneself, but for one's own life to carry on unchanged is a very strange thing, for the others around you to take up the slack, make all the allowances

the image that keeps coming back into my mind again and again is Debbie Hayton with their wife in the Stella O'Malley documentary

OrchidInTheSun · 06/07/2019 10:00

All of those papers from that conference are really eye opening and deeply disturbing.

And TinselAngel - thank you for starting the threads and for all the support you offer women going through the same trauma. You're amazing

RedToothBrush · 06/07/2019 10:25

I have to say that is the first time I've seen something which says there is a pattern of psychological breakdown associated with those who are directly affected by someone else's gender identity.

I've said for some time about how your own identity is very much defined by your understanding of your relationships. Eg, being the eldest and only daughter in a family and also having a younger brother. And how changes to this can deeply affect you, eg now being told that your brother is now your sister - and how this affects how you relate to others - eg how do you answer and share life experience with peers in conversation when you are asked seemingly simple and uncontroversial questions like 'do you have any brothers and sisters?' and how this affects how you develop new relationships.

Reading the above article made me think a lot about the formation of identity in its own right and in a more general sense, with the view that the assertion that identity crisis or sudden change of identity or perception of identity by someone you are particularly close to can have profound effects on you - to the point of psychological breakdown.

You don't have to look further than Wikipedia to get a sense of how this is undoubtedly true.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation

Reading through this the references to family are repeated

Identities are formed on many levels, micro, meso, macro, and global. The micro level is self definition and relationship to people and issues as seen from a person or individual perspective. The meso level is where our identifies are viewed, formed, and questioned from our immediate communities and/or our families. Macro are the connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups as a view from a national perspective. Lastly, the global level is connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups from a worldwide perspective.

Identity is often described as finite and consisting of separate and distinct parts (family, cultural, personal, professional, etc.), yet according to Parker J. Palmer, it is an ever-evolving core within where our genetics (biology), culture, loved ones, those we cared for, people who have harmed us and people we have harmed, the deeds done (good and ill) to self and others, experiences lived, and choices made come together to form who we are at this moment.

(The whole article I found useful)

And then a separate article on identity crisis.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_crisis

Sometimes individuals face obstacles that may prevent the development of a strong identity. This sort of unresolved crisis leaves individuals struggling to "find themselves". They often seem to have no idea who or what they are, where they belong or where they want to go. They may withdraw from normal life, not taking action or acting as they usually would at work, in their marriage or at school, or be unable to make defining choices about the future. They may even turn to negative activities, such as crime or drugs since from their point of view having a negative identity could be more acceptable than none at all.

On the other side of the spectrum, those who emerge from the adolescent stage of personality development with a strong sense of identity are well equipped to face adulthood with confidence and certainty.

Erikson felt that peers have a strong impact on the development of ego identity during adolescence. He believed that association with negative groups such as cults or fanatics could actually "redistrict" the developing ego during this fragile time. The basic strength that Erikson found should be developed during adolescence is fidelity, which only emerges from a cohesive ego identity. Fidelity is known to encompass sincerity, genuineness and a sense of duty in our relationships with other people.

This is hugely important to understand in an era of social media and the naturally occurring echo chambers that it produces and that teenagers are growing up in. There needs to be a lot of work done on this to put gender identity formation in adolescence into proper context.

Emotional immaturity would also seem to be a real issue and it stands to reason that those with autism or who have been bullied are, of course, more at risk of identity crisis. And into this void you have the cult of gender appearing...

... This isn't rocket science. This is just looking at the same issue outside the box, away from the entire concept of gender on more neutral and general terms and then reflecting back on gender identity. It starts to give a very different perspective and narrative and begs questions of why no one else is looking at the concept of identity from other angles.

It also suggests that 'acceptance without exception' is a deeply flawed concept which fails to understand that identity formation in one individual has a profound effect on others and may well damage their psychological well being too. In this sense the interests of the individual in isolation is profoundly harmful to society and in particular family units. It would indeed suggest that ALL members of a family unit need to be involved in a process of extreme identity change and that all individuals in that unit can experience negative mental health episodes rather than this idea of the trans person being the most vulnerable and the only one at risk of psychological breakdown. The idea that family members should just 'suck it up' is deeply disturbing when you start to scratch the surface. I've talked a lot about power dynamics and how identity change in a family can be totally redrawn in the past and this does also seem to feed into that too.

The lack of proper research and the culture of silence around families who are restricted by fears of upsetting loved ones and patterns of coercive control is appalling. Especially when you consider that article was written in 1998.

I don't know, but I found that article very useful, telling and thought provoking so thanks for posting Tinsel.

The idea of copying also rings very true to me as I've used the metaphor of 'looking in a twisted mirror' as an idea before. My approval was apparently particularly important to my brother according to Mum, and it wouldn't surprise me that my choice of partner was problematic (DH is very stereotypically alpha male and the first thing that seemed to happen when my brother came out was a deliberate unprovoked attempt to attack DH from my brother and his partner, possibly to alienate me from him, which I didn't take well at all and was the spark to destroying the family).

I don't know.

Complex issue which needs looking at much more closely.

Gingerkittykat · 06/07/2019 14:38

www.theguardian.com/society/2012/nov/02/my-husbands-sex-change#comment-19239955

Linking to the Guardian article again. If you read the comments then the sheer number of people attacking the wife is staggering. She was irresponsible for marrying him, she is a transphobe, she is selfish, she should not be talking about the parent (not father) of her kids like this, it's her fault she is angry and bitter and refusing to move on, she was stupid to have children with a man who had expressed doubts about his gender and worst of all she misgendered him by using the name Tom.

The article was written in 2012 I would love to know what happened next.

OrchidInTheSun · 06/07/2019 15:02

Yes I read the comments this morning Ginger. I see Natacha Kennedy is on there, berating Christine for being a selfish cow for not standing by her husband when he transitioned and cruelly unwilling to understand the mental anguish that Tom is going through - blackmailing him to force him to deny his true self. Natacha is so traumatised by her own transgenderism that she has co-authored papers with her deadname self, Mark Hellen and used to be listed in their staff directory under both names.

Bit like Jane Fae who is too proud of the body of work they created in the name of John Ozimek to let it go.

BatShite · 06/07/2019 15:18

The transwidows threads horrify me, in all honesty. What these women have gone torugh, all in the name of AGP..its disgusting. It affects m to the point where I sometimes don't read them at all for a few months, thats how much it gets to me. I do bite the bullet and go to them and read back eventually though, because basically, I think the words of these women need to be read by all so we can fully understand the extent some men go to, and have 'insider knowledge' of quite what is happening in the name of 'queer thory'. And as they are brave enough to share their stories, I feel I should be brave enough to read them too, even if it gets me down sometimes.

SnuggyBuggy · 06/07/2019 15:32

It makes me wish there would be some real research into these men rather than an acceptance of the woman all along narrative. It just seems so out of the blue in a lot of cases, could there be an organic cause or something?

To be blunt it makes me kind of scared that this could happen to any man like my DDad or DH with no way to stop or prevent it.

jay55 · 06/07/2019 19:37

I think you've all been brilliant and brave and fucking stunning to tell your stories and be a support to each other. So bloody, bloody brave.

I've been single a very long time, and the relationship boards here were a revelation to me with 'the script'. It becomes depressingly easy to spot the abuse script, the affair script from posts without any first hand experience.

I found the transwidow threads enlightening in the same way, and very scary because again 'the script' shines out in neon, but the widows don't get the same support or understanding from friends, family and others outside the marriage.

Don't even get to define themselves without being belittled and degraded.

hoodathunkit · 07/07/2019 07:32

I have met women over the years (decades in fact) who have discovered their husbands' cross-dressing and who have attended "counselling" with their husbands at the Beaumont Society.

The "counselling" consoled of telling the women concerned that they would be committing abuses on their husbands if they do not accept the cross-dressing.

The lies, the betrayal, the secret lives all unimportant. The only important thing is to repeat the choices on the husbands concerned,

The women I talked to felt gaslighted and very distressed by their experiences. This all happened at least 20 years ago and however bad it was then it can only have gotten worse over time.

The Trans Widows thread simply was the shit icing on the deeply unpleasant cake that I already knew about.

hoodathunkit · 07/07/2019 07:33

^^
above post
"repeat" should read "respect"

TinselAngel · 07/07/2019 09:34

I think any organisation with any links to transgender support groups will never be able to be trusted to give wives independent support. They just aim to make wives more compliant.

With regards to the moving accounts below from the children of transitioned fathers: speaking from experience, the only way you will be able to effectively support each other is to set something up yourself.

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 07/07/2019 13:30

I just want to add a thank you to Tinsel who is a bloody star. The transwidows thread is so important I think.

I am continually amazed by the fact that no-one sees the double standard of allowing males to self-identify but then, in the same breath, denying females the same ability. The request to be considerate of lady feelz whilst trampling all over biological women's feelings. Why should a wife who married a man have to live with a (parody of) woman? Why should she accept and not be upset, why shouldn't the biological male accept the fact that they're biologically male instead? It's misogyny 101. The transwidows thread really shows this up for what it is - entitled, abusive narcissism that leaves family and children hurt in it's wake. So important.

Mumminmum · 07/07/2019 17:28

Of course you can use the term "Transwidow" when the TWs themselves say that the men they were previously are dead and that using the names of the dead men is.

Scarlett555 · 07/07/2019 17:37

I have read the trans widows threads and have so much sympathy for the trans widows - I can't begin to imagine how devastating it must be to discover the person you thought you loved never really existed.

My (unpopular) opinion is society should support and champion transgender women who wish to transition in early adulthood. If transgender women felt their gender identity was nothing to be ashamed of then they would have no reason to suppress it. So many of these marriages could have been avoided if there was no shame around being transgender.

Deliriumoftheendless · 07/07/2019 18:31

I read the Trans Widows threads and only post in then occasionally, as it’s not something that I’ve experienced in a relationship so not my place but I want to thank you all as you have me the courage to split up with my partner (totally different circumstances - he was just a useless dad and I’d stopped feeling anything positive for him). But if I hadn’t read how brave you women who have gone through hell to get away from abusive husbands/partners I would’ve been stuck never moving forward.

I know it doesn’t really relate to the topic but I didn’t want to barge into the other thread to say it, but I am grateful to you all on a personal level.

Thank you.

BatShite · 07/07/2019 19:07

The "counselling" consoled of telling the women concerned that they would be committing abuses on their husbands if they do not accept the cross-dressing.

That sounds about right. Same as its 'transphobic' to leave a partner who has decided to 'physically transotion', rather than just play at 'being a woman' by adapting whatever stereotypes they think women follow.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 07/07/2019 19:09

My (unpopular) opinion is society should support and champion transgender women who wish to transition in early adulthood.

Unpopular? It's the prevailing narrative. Men who transition are nearly always portrayed as "brave and stunning". FWR is one of the few places on the internet where the TRA position can be challenged.

If transgender women felt their gender identity was nothing to be ashamed of then they would have no reason to suppress it. So many of these marriages could have been avoided if there was no shame around being transgender.

The script society is always given is of the man knowing they were really a woman from an early age, just like sexual orientation. The truth is that the AGP that fuels these men develops from a mild interest into an overwhelming obsession after many years of avid consumption of the various genres of AGP porn.

Gender dysphoria in adult men is self-generated. It's the result of fetishising a pornified version of femininity. It is profoundly misogynistic, and there's nothing innate about it.

TemporaryPermanent · 07/07/2019 20:52

Just another widow registering that use of the word 'widow' as a metaphor in this way isn't offensive to me. In this case, I'd say it's particularly apposite.

ThatDoctorEM · 08/07/2019 12:50

Thank you Tinsel for opening up the transwidow space and this thread. You have created such a supportive environment for women.

The transwidow accounts had an impact on me, one lens I analysed transgenderism through was that of domestic abuse writ macro. It seemed like I had encountered the play book of the trans activists before. However, it was important to have the affect on individual women re-asserted to me.

I had to listen and I felt I needed to bring the domestic abuse aspect into my wider consideration. I have used a couple of the personal stories in my essay here where I look at Stonewall lobbying to remove the spousal veto and trap women in abusive marriages amongst other things.
medium.com/@doctorEm/the-rainbow-reich-transgender-ideology-and-totalitarianism-2b90541057bd

I thought it was important to start the series off with the voices of these women.

A thread discussing the essay has already popped up
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3632392-Dr-Em-article-The-Rainbow-Reich-Transgender-Ideology-and-Totalitarianism-Very-important-analysis-of-context-this-attack-on-women-is-global-and-cross-cultural-It-comes-in-many-different-guises

TinselAngel · 08/07/2019 13:43

Thanks ThatDoctorEM. Any potential removal of the spousal veto doesn't mean people can't get divorced though, a trans widow can (like I did), divorce her husband for unreasonable behaviour.

I haven't done much reading on the subject but I presume the spousal veto was necessary when there was no same sex marriage so a gender recognition certificate would have made the marriage invalid.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 08/07/2019 13:55

Also @ThatDoctorEM having now read the article, I see you say: The proposed removal of the spousal veto would mean an end to a 6 month period after a person has applied for a GRC in which the spouse (usually the wife) may dissolve the marriage.[46] This possibility of annulment is important, particularly as many religions frown on divorce and second marriage. It is the closest to a no-fault divorce possible

If a woman does exercise the spousal veto and the marriage is annulled, do they still have the same right to ancillary relief etc from their husband that they would have following a divorce?

OP posts:
ThatDoctorEM · 08/07/2019 14:07

I'm not sure, I'm struggling to find a proper explanation for it.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread