Young women and sexual expectations of their partners

[CatalogueUniverse]

I’ve been reading a lot recently about the sexual expectations that young women are being confronted with when dating. I’ve also read a number of threads on here by women who after ending a long term relationship have gone back into dating and been somewhat surprised at the sexual acts that are considered mainstream which was also my experience when I ventured out after the breakdown of my long marriage.

I’m grasping (weakly) at the concept that it would be very easy for women of any sexuality who have been in a long term relationship to dismiss the concerns of those who are being subjected to a very different experience.

I have daughters rapidly heading towards adulthood. One of which is lesbian. She is a fabulous young woman with a developed sense of justice and rights and has a small number of lesbian friends - some of which are trans girls - for the sake of clarity, born male, identifies as female. Lovely kids all, one is dating a female lesbian. This has made me think even harder about talking to my daughter about sexual preferences , being comfortable with the sex you have, why your body is yours and shouldn’t be used to make someone else feel good at your expense. All of which I would want her to know about regardless of the sex of her partner but as she has expressed a clear preference for female bodied women while simultaneously supporting trans women are women and expressing confusion about this relationship and whether it is homo/hetero/pan sexual there’s a lot going on. I ended up saying that there is a spectrum of sexuality, Kinsey style with some people being at the absolute heterosexual end and some being at the absolute homosexual end and others somewhere in the middle. I did veer off into a mess about how more boxes create more divides and also why language is important and I think I confused us both.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww and actually getting my point over about her right to only have sex with people she fancies who fancy her in a mutually respectful happy manner.

I’ve attempted to discuss this with RL friends but as most of them gay or straight are in long term relationships of about 20 years they all think it’s a bit unnecessary. Maybe it’s because most of them who have kids have boys. Which frequently goes along with a porn, pfft whatever attitude.

I can’t decide if I’ve read too much about cotton ceiling, porn death grip in young men or whether I should be as concerned as I am. Young women seem to have a boatload of sexual expectation foisted on them which is waaaaaay beyond what was my experience 30 years ago. In the dark ages when those who trimmed or removed their pubic hair were considered most exotic and anal was only mentioned rarely in the context of a heterosexual experience.

Are my RL friends correct that I’m over concerned or are they out of touch with today’s reality? I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

As a father of 2 boys I will be teaching them that what they might see on the internet is not necessarily right or to be encouraged. Pressuring a girl to do something for your pleasure that she might be uncomfortable with is wrong in so many ways and it does make you a bad person. I am told that because of internet porn boys are surprised to learn that women have pubic hair! If I had a daughter I'd teach her self respect and anyone trying to twist her arm to do something she doesn't want to do can get lost. A decent man will come along, accept nothing less.
Sadly it really is different today with the ready availability of quite extreme porn but I still believe I can raise my children as loving, caring human beings. In fact I won't accept anything less.

I saw a TV programme recently where they asked the (young) audience where they'd got most of their sex education from. Over half of them said they'd leaned about sex from watching porn. I feel sorry for girls and boys who are learning that these types of acts are "normal" , and that young women are being coerced into performing acts which they don't want, because "men expect it". Something is very wrong and it makes me sad.

CatalogueUniverse
I was just trying/thinking to start a post related to what you are saying, sadly. I am with my partner 5 years, we have 2 children, I'm in my 30s, so not adolescent but young relatively.My partner watches porn and I knew this early on, mostly anal porn. The last few months he has been trying to have anal sex with me, and once I gave in. Did nothing for me and I told him that after. Tonight he tried, I told him no, and he tried again.I told him no. Saying no twice, this is my partner and that's not right is it?
I'm so angry and upset now,that he tried again, I'm really sad about it. I think it is the porn death grip. Now I am not sure how to handle this or if I can move on from it. So to answer your question, I don't think you are over concerned.

I'm in my thirties and I still can't get over Teen Vogue doing a guide to anal. The pornification of young women is horrific.

This worries me too. I've not been shy to try a few different things in my life but I wasn't a teenager, or even early 20s when I first did. Long term stable relationships, you get a little bored and adventurous sometimes. It wasn't and isn't a regular thing, Very rare actually. I worry that modern porn tells teens a different story about expectations. And about how to recognise consent too.

I read a comment the other day on Twitter about a teenager talking about being choked during sex like it's a standard thing. Fuck. That didn't half terrify me. Replies included comments from porn researchers about young women having anal prolapses because porn doesn't teach anyone how to have safe anal sex. Bruises, cuts, infections, permanent damage, internally, externally. and all sorts of other physically damaging things I won't mention in detail. All because BDSM and extreme porn makes things look simple and easy and essentially harmless.

And not just the act itself but also this idea that young women and men should be sexually free and liberated. Open to anything. That's modern, right? Unconstrained by stuffy and old fashioned ideas of heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality. Anyone, anything, anytime. Anything else is 'vanilla'. Nobody ever talks about trust or consent or boundaries or any of the things that keep people comfortable and safe.

When I was younger the common (and stupid) theory was that older people just didn't have sex at all or if they did it was all boring. Missionary was a bad word. That idea has been super duper triple boosted to meet modern day requirements fuelled by unrealistic extreme porn expectations.

What do we think is now considered mainstream that perhaps was previously seen as less vanilla?

I do think there are a lot of expectations on young people now that are different.

It's obviously been influenced a lot by porn, but the idea that something becoming mainstream creates its own pressure is pretty old hat in a way. When I first went to university was around the time removal of pubic hair became a big thing, and it did create a lot of pressure and expectations. There was a time when oral sex was considered kind of fringe, not something you'd expect unless the other person was really into it, now that view is seen as not only prudish but kind of likeyou are refusing normal intimacy.

It;s hard for young people. Our expectations come from our environment and so much with sex and young people is just them figuring it out as they go, often lacking experience and insight into other people generally, they don't actually even really know what they do like. For a lot of women, they like the idea of sex but it can take time to figure out how to make it really enjoyable, so telling them they need to use their enjoyment as a guide is not as useful as it might be.

I think the best approach for young people is to take it slow and make sure your partner is someone you know and trust and can discuss things with. Sometimes though the only way to discover that some people don't deserve trust is to experience it, and then what they need is a kind of self respect or regard that allows them to be resilient and learn.

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo that is so not right. I hope you tell him to fuck off next time he tries, he shouldn't even be trying without asking. Once you say no, that's final. What a prick, I'm so angry for you!
I'm in my 30s also and fear what the future holds for our children, I was resilient to pressure from idiot boyfriends but it seems they all think it's normal now.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww

One of the craziest things this movement has done is simultaneously caricature GC people as prudes, while expressing disgust and horror if anyone mentions sex or genitals.

I saw a gay guy a while back talk about the dating scene. He said on one hand, any kink or fetish is fine - in fact he's been given abuse for objecting to some really disgusting stuff - the only preference that's not acceptable, the only one you can bully people about without it being the unforgivable 'kink-shaming', is sexual orientation.

There's a strange irony in sex-positivity. It seems to be saying 'yay, sex!' but it ignores the reality of sex, that it happens with our own, human, harmable bodies and it tends to have a profound effect on our well-being for good or bad. Sex-positivity will hold that sex is the most important thing in life and also that it doesn't matter at all - that it can be traded, for example. That pleasure is everything but also your pain or discomfort is nothing.

If you're daughter is into thinking about things generally, in a philosophical sort of way, maybe one way to start talking to her about this is by talking about how ideologies have always come along that tried to deny or suppress or shame our physical bodies. Religions or cultures that treated women's pleasure in sex as shameful and women's bodies as unclean. Jane Clare Jones has talked about this - how the denial of material reality harms women particularly. I can't find the blog post where she discussed it right now.

Thank you all, some interesting food for thought.

Mainstream- choking, anal, deep throat, sex ending with cum splattered over women. I’m sure I haven’t got it all. It all seems to be like a list of things that are done on women rather than mutual acts. And that these are standard rather than requiring additional consent and discussion.

I’ll have a look at Jane Clare Jones.

It took me and I suspect a lot of women quite a long time to have agency in our sex lives. The culture of my youth was very much woman as gatekeepers and men’s jobs to push past to the next stage. Rather than let’s talk about this and communicate about what works because y’know women like orgasms too.

And thank you to the father of boys who is trying to make sure his boys grow up into men respectful of their sexual partners as people not receptacles.

Oh and Oncewasblueandyellowtwo I’m so sorry that is happening to you. Your partner is being an arse. No means no it’s not the starting point for negotiation. Which does chime with the model of good girls say no and men persuade them. I don’t think that has helped men or women to negotiate sex.

I’m heading out for the day, but any other posts are very very much appreciated and I will be back later to read.

I came across this recently. It's really shocking and as a mother of daughters very concerning.

www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1slgnjt

Girls are being groomed into thinking sex is something men do to them rather than with them.

The clitoris and female orgasm were ‘discovered’ only to be sidelined a generation later.

It deeply troubled me when I talk to younger women who think being in a relationship = consent to anything and everything.

Screenshot for those not on twitter.

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo
If he 'tries' once you've said 'no' that's attempted rape. I would think very seriously about wether you want to continue a relationship with this man.

At the least you should have a conversation with him where you make it clear that you do not like anal sex and you will not do it again.

My DD is 12 and to be honest I have already started having age appropriate (and hopefully amusing and not scary) conversations around this.
I think the single most important thing a woman has with sexual choices is the right to say no. This is also what kink shaming and queer boundary pushing seeks to erode.
My DD has been studying reproduction at school and has been really shocked at how ignorant and prejudiced so many of her classmates are. It's triggered conversations around feminism (women who hate men apparently) and gender pay gaps (can't see a problem with that said one girl) and my DD has come home fuming!
But this has led on to a conversation around how different peoples attitudes and beliefs are shaped by their own experiences.
This in turn ended up in a conversation about porn and how if your only experience of sex was porn, you'd have a pretty wrong idea about what real sex was more generally like.
I don't want to talk about porn sex Vs real sex with her as she's too young, so I likened it to thinking all swimming would be like the Olympics if you'd never been to a local swimming pool.

@FannyCann it's really horrific that things are like that now. It's brilliant that you're speaking up. I don't have much faith that OJ will listen to you, he no longer seems to be capable of entertaining viewpoints other than his own. But other people will see it.

Mermoose. That wasn't my post! It was a furious rant at Owen by someone on twitter, just reproducing it here.

"sexual acts that are considered mainstream"

This is something I just don't get.

'Mainstream' is public. The things you do in public. The things that involve/affect/are observed by other people. When I was a child, eating sandwiches while walking down the street was considered inappropriate. Now it is commonplace - mainstream.

Sex is private. Sex is personal. Sex is an activity that takes place between consenting adults. Anything goes - as long as all participants enjoy it and consent to it. 'Mainstream' is irrelevant. If both partners want anal, then they are compatible. If one wants BDSM but partner wants vanilla, then they are incompatible. Other people are not involved, so it's none of their business and 'mainstream' does not come into it.

I see nothing wrong in any of these sexual acts.

The only thing I see wrong is women not being confident enough to say no. Myself included. If a woman says yes because she wants to then why is that a bad thing? If she says no and it isn’t listened to then that is indeed a bad thing.

Men have desires that are influenced by porn. That’s true. But that is not a bad thing if they are good people and listen to their sexual partners.

FannyCann Ha! Oh right. Well, it's really good.

CatalogueUniverse don't know if this would be of any interest, but Julia Jacklin sings about this kind of thing. 'Body' is great but there's a line in 'Head Alone' that I LOVE: "I don't want to be touched all the time/I raised my body up to mine"

And can I make a massive point that women enjoy porn too and their desires are influenced in just the same way?

fanny that’s really shocking - this is what porn has done but nobody seems to care. Women are no longer supposed to enjoy sex, just be wanked on /into and pretend it’s all good

Worth reading this study Anal heterosex among young people and implications for health promotion: a qualitative study in the UK :

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996.full

Conclusion:

Young people's narratives normalised coercive, painful and unsafe anal heterosex. This study suggests an urgent need for harm reduction efforts targeting anal sex to help encourage discussion about mutuality and consent, reduce risky and painful techniques and challenge views that normalise coercion.

Discussed in depth hereabouts on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2163387-Depressing-report-anal-sex-in-under-18s