Young women and sexual expectations of their partners

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I’ve been reading a lot recently about the sexual expectations that young women are being confronted with when dating. I’ve also read a number of threads on here by women who after ending a long term relationship have gone back into dating and been somewhat surprised at the sexual acts that are considered mainstream which was also my experience when I ventured out after the breakdown of my long marriage.

I’m grasping (weakly) at the concept that it would be very easy for women of any sexuality who have been in a long term relationship to dismiss the concerns of those who are being subjected to a very different experience.

I have daughters rapidly heading towards adulthood. One of which is lesbian. She is a fabulous young woman with a developed sense of justice and rights and has a small number of lesbian friends - some of which are trans girls - for the sake of clarity, born male, identifies as female. Lovely kids all, one is dating a female lesbian. This has made me think even harder about talking to my daughter about sexual preferences , being comfortable with the sex you have, why your body is yours and shouldn’t be used to make someone else feel good at your expense. All of which I would want her to know about regardless of the sex of her partner but as she has expressed a clear preference for female bodied women while simultaneously supporting trans women are women and expressing confusion about this relationship and whether it is homo/hetero/pan sexual there’s a lot going on. I ended up saying that there is a spectrum of sexuality, Kinsey style with some people being at the absolute heterosexual end and some being at the absolute homosexual end and others somewhere in the middle. I did veer off into a mess about how more boxes create more divides and also why language is important and I think I confused us both.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww and actually getting my point over about her right to only have sex with people she fancies who fancy her in a mutually respectful happy manner.

I’ve attempted to discuss this with RL friends but as most of them gay or straight are in long term relationships of about 20 years they all think it’s a bit unnecessary. Maybe it’s because most of them who have kids have boys. Which frequently goes along with a porn, pfft whatever attitude.

I can’t decide if I’ve read too much about cotton ceiling, porn death grip in young men or whether I should be as concerned as I am. Young women seem to have a boatload of sexual expectation foisted on them which is waaaaaay beyond what was my experience 30 years ago. In the dark ages when those who trimmed or removed their pubic hair were considered most exotic and anal was only mentioned rarely in the context of a heterosexual experience.

Are my RL friends correct that I’m over concerned or are they out of touch with today’s reality? I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

Beamur has she thought of going to one of the hobby groups on Meetup.com? A friend of mine joined loads of pretty cool groups and ended up finding people to date that way.

It's quite jarring to me how openly online dating seems to be mainly about sex now. When I was younger although there were people who really just wanted to get laid on a date, there was a sort of veneer of having to make an effort and even most of the men thought they lucked out if things went well. That the woman would want to have sex was not assumed at all.

Now it seems very in the open that its mostly about sex and if the sex is good maybe they will see each other again.

Mermoose
I'll pass that on, thanks

I find all this makes me feel really despairing, as though the gains women have made since the fifties, when my Mum was going on dates, have all come with huge losses. My Mum was a virgin when she married, as was my Dad. When she went on dates there was no expectation of sex. She was generally treated with respect by men.
The flip side then was that women were often patronised, they had far fewer opportunities, often less of an education than their brothers, and getting pregnant outside marriage was considered shameful.
The flip side now, of the small gains we have made, is that men who hate women, or who have no respect for them, feel emboldened in expressing that publicly. For all the #metoo there is very little public censure for misogyny. I really believe that it is worse now than in the fifties. Men now can plead “ but she wanted it your Honour” , and may literally get away with murder. Men can threaten beatings, rapes, extreme violence, openly on twitter to women who say things they don’t like.

It feels as though we are going backwards, not forwards, and I fear for my daughters.

@SirVixofVixhall i was just coming on to say that i think its worse now than in the 70s.

The only bits of feminism that a lot of men seem happy to go along with is a woman paying her half of a date But im willing to bet that if she showed up to a date with any unshaved body hair on show the men would forget their feminist stance PDQ

Oh and we now have women saving for their own maternity leave despite having a partner.

Notice how quite a few men have been happy to get on board with the bits of feminism that suit their wallet.

My parents were the same as yours Only ever been with each other.

My eldest dd is 14. I was 14 in 1978, it really does feel harder for girls now, in so many ways. I had a much less complicated time at 14 than my dd. I was at an all girls school, which helped perhaps.

I was 14 in 1987. There were pressures then but nothing like now

No Instagram or Shag For Likes Island

I think that maybe we've been unwise, as a society, to think of the kinds of attitudes about sex that you guys are talking about were passe or quaint or just prudish.

There were some things that it is very nice we don't do so much any more, of course. And there were always assholes and I suppose always will be, and perhaps we naively thought that if we got past the old fashioned ideas that we'd get rid of the assholes.
Sometimes there seems to be a hard time connecting ideas that went together. So not pressuring people for sex, not expecting it, expecting respect: what are the basic social attitudes you need to have to try and produce people who reflexively behave that way? Given that there are some real differences how men and women think about sex, particularly among young people?

I think maybe that attitude just doesn't meld well with an attitude that says sex isn't a big deal, you can just do it when you feel like it and its totally up to you. So maybe to some extent, we have to choose, do we want to teach young people, young men, that sex is no big deal, or do we want to teach them that it is and so you have to behave especially respectfully about it, even if you have powerful feelings about it?

Goosefoot, crossing a street is no big deal, but that doesn't mean oncoming pedestrians just ram each other because fuckit. Grocery shopping is no big deal, but people don't kick items off the shelves into their trolleys. Going to a dinner party is a medium deal, and even so people manage to get through them without choking each other.

It sounds like you're a bit confused about the nature of sex and respect. The two have nothing to do with each other. Respect is about power and politeness. Sex is about feeling good. When sex stands in for a power play in some inadequate guy's head, and then gets all mixed up with respect just to make the process tolerable for his female partner, what's happening is so far away from actual sex the only similarity is that genitals are involved.

It's a bit like thinking laughter and choking are the same general process because both produce noises from the larynx.

Sirvix, I agree that it's getting worse in some ways.

There is so much pressure to look a certain way. And so much fucked up stuff sexually.

I am not likely to agree that sex and respect have nothing to do with each other. That's quite a claim really, anything we do that affects others, even indirectly, is linked to respect for others.
And sex is hardly only about feeling good. If it was that simple it wouldn't be such a minefield.

It sounds like you're a bit confused about the nature of sex and respect. The two have nothing to do with each other. Respect is about power and politeness. Sex is about feeling good.

Couldn't disagree more. Sex, respect and intimacy go hand in hand for me. Feeling good is great, but I could live without it. The fuzzy, warm, glow of intimacy and mutual respect on the other hand.

Yeah when I was young I probably thought sex and respect had nothing to do with each other but now I feel properly grim that I shagged blokes who just thought of me as a piece of meat.

It's never the same for men and women because of society.

Nothing to do with each other as categories. As behaviors, obviously good things work well together. Kindness is also not the same as sex or respect, but it's at least as necessary in any relationship, even a brief one, for it to be fun.

Sex isn't just about feeling good. I think this goes to the heart of the problem, this idea that sex is just another source of pleasure. Sex can affect us profoundly in good and bad ways. There's nothing else like it. It's about the only thing that in one situation can be the most pleasant experience and in another can be the most horrific. It's much too closely tied up with our emotions and mental well-being to be thought of in the way that the 'sex-positive' narrative presents it.

It's a difficult issue.

A significant number of women (presumably non-feminist) apparently have rape fantasies, so this sadly is likely to support men's defence of "but it was consensual".

A recent analysis of 20 studies over the last 30 years indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have rapefantasies, and these fantasies are frequent or preferred in 9% to 17% of women. Considering that many people are ashamed to report rape fantasies, these stats are most likely lowball figures.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies%3famp

A significant number of women (presumably non-feminist) apparently have rape fantasies, so this sadly is likely to support men's defence of "but it was consensual".

Why would it?
Have people arrested for GBH tried this particular defence? "Turns out he plays Street Fighter, your honour, so, I think we can safely say that he quite likes getting his head kicked in of a Saturday".

Why would it?

It's already happening! There are quite a few threads on here where men have said the woman died during consensual 'play', sometimes getting away with it.

significant number of women (presumably non-feminist) apparently have rape fantasies

I actually wouldn't presume that. They could have been into rape fantasy before they became feminist. And you can read feminist theory and agree with it but that's not really going to suddenly kill off the fantasy is it, we aren't free in what we want in that way. So a feminist might have a rape fantasy but also be able to objectively see it as problematic.

Yes, sorry, I know that it does happen. I meant to say that it shouldn't support their defence because it's not logical - there's a large gap between what people 'enjoy' in fiction or fantasy and what they actually want to happen in real life. And we're well able to grasp this in just about every other area.

The fuzzy, warm, glow of intimacy and mutual respect on the other hand.

I've had sex with a lot of men, including my long-term partner, and I have never felt this after sex. I just don't get the whole "glow of intimacy" thing, but then sex doesn't seem that special or intimate to me I guess. A cuddle seems more intimate than sex because cuddling is about real affection, whereas for sex you don't need any affection at all.

there's a large gap between what people 'enjoy' in fiction or fantasy and what they actually want to happen in real life. And we're well able to grasp this in just about every other area.

This. I know many women enjoy the TV show Wentworth Prison but I don't think that means they want to shank other women in real life and run a prison drug line.

Agreed. But it's presumably easier to 'justify' why you were strangling somebody in the first place if it transpires that they fantasise about being strangled.

Just seen a good example of attitudes on Celebrity Gogglebox

Roman Kemp (son) ...... "Fit from afar but far from fit"
Martin Kemp (father) ...... "where did you learn that"
Roman ......"nightclubs"
Martin......I like it.

Grim Fucking grim.