Young women and sexual expectations of their partners

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I’ve been reading a lot recently about the sexual expectations that young women are being confronted with when dating. I’ve also read a number of threads on here by women who after ending a long term relationship have gone back into dating and been somewhat surprised at the sexual acts that are considered mainstream which was also my experience when I ventured out after the breakdown of my long marriage.

I’m grasping (weakly) at the concept that it would be very easy for women of any sexuality who have been in a long term relationship to dismiss the concerns of those who are being subjected to a very different experience.

I have daughters rapidly heading towards adulthood. One of which is lesbian. She is a fabulous young woman with a developed sense of justice and rights and has a small number of lesbian friends - some of which are trans girls - for the sake of clarity, born male, identifies as female. Lovely kids all, one is dating a female lesbian. This has made me think even harder about talking to my daughter about sexual preferences , being comfortable with the sex you have, why your body is yours and shouldn’t be used to make someone else feel good at your expense. All of which I would want her to know about regardless of the sex of her partner but as she has expressed a clear preference for female bodied women while simultaneously supporting trans women are women and expressing confusion about this relationship and whether it is homo/hetero/pan sexual there’s a lot going on. I ended up saying that there is a spectrum of sexuality, Kinsey style with some people being at the absolute heterosexual end and some being at the absolute homosexual end and others somewhere in the middle. I did veer off into a mess about how more boxes create more divides and also why language is important and I think I confused us both.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww and actually getting my point over about her right to only have sex with people she fancies who fancy her in a mutually respectful happy manner.

I’ve attempted to discuss this with RL friends but as most of them gay or straight are in long term relationships of about 20 years they all think it’s a bit unnecessary. Maybe it’s because most of them who have kids have boys. Which frequently goes along with a porn, pfft whatever attitude.

I can’t decide if I’ve read too much about cotton ceiling, porn death grip in young men or whether I should be as concerned as I am. Young women seem to have a boatload of sexual expectation foisted on them which is waaaaaay beyond what was my experience 30 years ago. In the dark ages when those who trimmed or removed their pubic hair were considered most exotic and anal was only mentioned rarely in the context of a heterosexual experience.

Are my RL friends correct that I’m over concerned or are they out of touch with today’s reality? I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

I always assumed that male strippers were a joke.

Both sexes objectify the other, though.
I don't think they do, at least not to the same extent. I linked to a study in a previous post, I'll see if I can find it again. It showed that men are much more likely to objectify women.

Study I mentioned in previous post: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/

If by "objectifying" you mean sexual pleasure without a personal emotional connection, whether casual sex, masturbation through porn, and prostitution, men are of course much more likely to do this. I believe this is due to biological differences between men and women, I'm not sure whether others here would agree. This wouldn't excuse this, but means men perhaps face an extra burden in resisting this.

If by "objectifying" you mean sexual pleasure without a personal emotional connection
No, I mean it in the dictionary sense: "degrade to the status of a mere object". Women are more likely to empathise with the person they are viewing, this automatically acknowledges that person's humanity. Women are more likely to feel discomfort at the degrading treatment of someone in porn.

Just to note: I'm saying 'more likely' and 'less likely', and I'm talking only about responses to porn.

And I completely agree with you, that it's possible to say this tendency is due to biological differences, and also that doesn't excuse it. I think there's probably some biological cause but also social causes.

Both sexes objectify the other, though. Male strippers seem to be a common staple of hen do's and I was actually caught by surprise a few months back when having a drink with a mate in a local pub

Male strippers tend to be hired for a joke. Women don't take them seriously in the way that men do.Male strippers are usually met with howls of laughter. They are entertainment.

Mermoose that is a more specific and I think useful definition of "objectification". Although is there any evidence for this statement?:

"Women are more likely to feel discomfort at the degrading treatment of someone in porn."

Is this why you think women are less likely to use porn? That they feel discomfort at how the people in it are being degraded or just displayed? Or could it be that women, on average, simply aren't as aroused as men by visual depictions or sex and nudity? That the main reason they don't consume as much porn is because it mostly just bores them, rather than disgusts them?

Although is there any evidence for this statement?:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/

"women also reported more negative emotions, such as aversion, guilt, and shame, in response to the man-created compared to the woman-created films."
It's true though that they don't go into detail about the differences between man-made and woman-made films and whether it is more degrading.

could it be that women, on average, simply aren't as aroused as men by visual depictions or sex and nudity?
Yes I think this is true too. From that link:
"men responded more to visual sexual stimuli than did women"

On empathy vs objectification:
"Women’s ability to imagine themselves as the woman in the film was the only factor the strongly correlated with their reported arousal. Men, however, rated the attractiveness of the female actor and the ability to observe the woman important in their arousal to the film in addition to imagining themselves in the situation. These results suggest that although both men and women project themselves into the scenario, men may be more likely to objectify the actors within the stimuli"

I suppose objectification is somewhat relative. I do think that, on average, men have an easier time with sex apart from a personal connection and can think about others as a sexual object only. I think that's why there are sex clubs for gay men, for instance, but not so much for lesbians.

That being said, women maybe do something similar. Very racy romance novels are extremely popular, or more often now racy fan fiction, which has the sexual element accompanied by a narrative that humanises or personalises it. Or similarly young women often have celebrity crushes where they are ver concerned about learning as much as possible about the celebrity.
So there is a more human element, but of course it isn't real. Even in cases where the person is real, it's really all kinds of expectations or desires of the girl or woman being hung on the image. I think it's dehumanising in its own way, and it also can cause a lot of problems when that attitude is brought into real relationships.

Sort of an aside, but in my religious tradition this is something that's considered important in terms of sexual ethics - it's why in an idealised scenario even fantasising about your spouse without the person there is considered sketchy, because its seen as a way that potentially separate the real individual, with all his or her flaws, from their use for your own sexual pleasure. Of course I doubt many live up to this but the idea is there, and its meant to apply to both sexes.

I think the way that sex is treated now has gone wrong on many levels.

Many posters are laying the blame at the feet of men - that they aren't considering the needs of their partner etc which might be true. But then other posters say that young women might do things that they are unsure about because they worry about saying no - but realistically if you agree to do something, whether you know that you don't like it or aren't sure, then how does your partner know that you don't want to do it? Why are people having sex if they aren't able to discuss what they like/ don't like etc? Why aren't we teaching our children this? Don't do it until you feel confident enough to say what you want.

I think boys are also given very mixed messages growing up to. The message they get given, by girls as well as society, is that they need to be good at sex, up for it "a man". If they are inexperienced (or admit that they are) then they are ridiculed by both their mates and girls too. This message continues into adulthood too. Many threads on here from posters who think that men should pay on dates for example. Why is that? Look at the popularity of Fifty Shades - where did that come from? That was also putting out a very strong message about a particular type of man and a particular type of sexual relationship. Why is it so popular? And given that is was wasn't it sending a message to men that this is what a lot of women want?

"Many threads on here from posters who think that men should pay on dates for example"

And many men expect expensive levels of grooming from women.

So whats your point?

"I think boys are also given very mixed messages growing too

So are women. Now they are convinced they have to pay for all of their own maternity leave despite having a partner. There is a thread on here about it @DecomposingComposers And it seems now its seen as sponging to expect her partner to contribute to a maternity leave that involves his own kids.
And then when a couple split people act like its a shock that he resists paying Child Support.

Fifty Shades is FICTION

Why did you single that out

Why not Maestra

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3582145-Expectations-of-mothers-includes-financial-abuse

And many men expect expensive levels of grooming from women.

So is it a quid pro quo then? I've had my nails down and shaved my legs so you owe me dinner?

Find that very weird.

Fifty Shades is FICTION

Why did you single that out

Why not Maestra

I know it's fiction, but why did it become so popular? Why were so many women so caught up by it?

And I've never heard of Maestra, hence why I didn't refer to it. I doubt most of the women who read 50 shades have heard of it either.

Well Fifty Shades is only a good example of media hype and good PR

"So is it a quid pro quo then? I've had my nails down and shaved my legs so you owe me dinner"

Dont be disingenuous You know what im getting at. The men who only get on board with feminism when it suits their wallet.

They are all for equality when it comes to spiltting the cost on dates and women saving for their own maternity leave but not so much on the other stuff.

They would be disgusted if a woman showed up in a short skirt with unshaved legs on show. Yet expect the bit of feminism that involves splitting the cost.

Twitter would go into meltdown if a woman did this on First Dates despite her sharing the cost of the date Both men and women would react this way

I dont think all men or all women would react like this but a lot would

Many years ago i went out with a man who told me that he hated hairy legs on a woman.

We went out and spilt the cost of it. I was happy to split it . But i couldnt get over the fact that he kept on and on about equality but couldnt see his own hypocrisy. There wasnt a second date Not because i was unhappy with splitting the cost. But because i didnt/dont want a relationship with a hypocrite.

@formerbabe

There wasnt a second date Not because i was unhappy with splitting the cost. But because i didnt/dont want a relationship with a hypocrite.

Well, quite. I wouldn't go out with him either.

But then I wouldn't do any level of grooming that I wasn't doing solely for myself. If any man doesn't like it, then that's not someone who I'm interested in.

I certainly wouldn't be doing things I didn't want to do but then expect him to buy dinner as some sort of compensation for me having shaved my legs.

Fifty Shades of Grey wasn't all about hype. It was fanfic and became incredibly popular by gaining female readers without even being published.

It is absolutely valid to ask why it appealed so much to so many women, what's going on with that. It wasn't men driving that trend, they didn't generally read the books and if they went to the films it was because their girlfriends wanted them to go.

Decomposing

I agree there is a problem around what people are being taught. No one is a mind reader, and if people are in a sexual encounter they need to be able to say what they are thinking or if they want something to change.

if people are in a sexual encounter they need to be able to say what they are thinking or if they want something to change.
It wold be nice if they did, but people don't behave (or rarely behave) entirely independently of the culture they're in.

I don't think it should be about blaming all men, or the women who read 'Fifty Shades'. Although in situations that have been mentioned here, where a man is actually insisting on things that he knows brings his partner no pleasure and in fact makes her uncomfortable or is painful, then that is to a large degree the man's fault.

I think it's a cultural problem, and it's caused by the prevalence of the "sex positive" narrative. This comes (I think) from the notion that we are entirely free and uninfluenced in the choices we make, and that ideas about questioning our urges or cultivating good habits are puritanical.

People who can only do it porn style are shit in bed and are mechanical fuckbots. There is no sensuality or skill, no connection. Just pump and dump in one hole, then another.

It's regressive and empty. It's like a frat boy or a goon watching himself pump iron in the gym mirror.

Having a hot quickie with a partner who gets and respects you is a different matter. Porn sex is totally souless fucking done by souless men who do not have any skills in seduction.

Good post @chillz Agree totally.

It wold be nice if they did, but people don't behave (or rarely behave) entirely independently of the culture they're in.

Sure, and even more perhaps is just human nature. I'm a very non-confrontational person in general, even now that I'm married for many years I don't like to come out ad say "I am really not into that." When I was younger it was complicated by the fact that often I didn't really know if I liked or disliked certain things.

I've learned through experience that it's important and no one else can read my mind, so I need to say something if I really care. But I don't know that there is really a short-cut for experience on this.

I totally agree that sex positivity is to blame. It's a non-true view o sex, so it's bound to fail really. I've wondered why it's dominated as I think many people don't really believe it. I think what may have happened is that most people kind of went away from the traditional, often religious, ways of thinking about sex. Not just what's ok to do, but thinking about how we are meant to understand it, what is it for. But we haven't really a lot of options to replace it. There is the sex positive view. And then many combine that with a sort of vague romanticism. And slap on some ideas about consent. But none of it is very robust and it doesn't hold together either.

It's very difficult to make any argument with people about ethics of sexuality beyond "consent".

I have a 23 year old dd. She’s been sexually active-and an oversharer- since she was 17. It is only in the past year that, in my opinion, she seems to be in a mutually respectful, equal relationship. It has been a heartbreaking few years for me- hearing about the hideous entitled behaviour of the young men she and her friends were going out with. Negging. Porn-informed sexual expectations. Nothing appears to have changed since I was a young woman- apart from becoming more extreme.

A significant number of women (presumably non-feminist) apparently have rape fantasies, so this sadly is likely to support men's defence of "but it was consensual"

Not this again. The difference between a woman's rape fantasy and an actual rape is that the woman is in total control of her fantasy "rapist's" actions on account of him being a figment of her imagination and is in total control of any sex toys she might be using so won't hurt herself. In an actual rape, the rapist is in control and can hurt her.

The two are not comparable.