Young women and sexual expectations of their partners

[CatalogueUniverse]

I’ve been reading a lot recently about the sexual expectations that young women are being confronted with when dating. I’ve also read a number of threads on here by women who after ending a long term relationship have gone back into dating and been somewhat surprised at the sexual acts that are considered mainstream which was also my experience when I ventured out after the breakdown of my long marriage.

I’m grasping (weakly) at the concept that it would be very easy for women of any sexuality who have been in a long term relationship to dismiss the concerns of those who are being subjected to a very different experience.

I have daughters rapidly heading towards adulthood. One of which is lesbian. She is a fabulous young woman with a developed sense of justice and rights and has a small number of lesbian friends - some of which are trans girls - for the sake of clarity, born male, identifies as female. Lovely kids all, one is dating a female lesbian. This has made me think even harder about talking to my daughter about sexual preferences , being comfortable with the sex you have, why your body is yours and shouldn’t be used to make someone else feel good at your expense. All of which I would want her to know about regardless of the sex of her partner but as she has expressed a clear preference for female bodied women while simultaneously supporting trans women are women and expressing confusion about this relationship and whether it is homo/hetero/pan sexual there’s a lot going on. I ended up saying that there is a spectrum of sexuality, Kinsey style with some people being at the absolute heterosexual end and some being at the absolute homosexual end and others somewhere in the middle. I did veer off into a mess about how more boxes create more divides and also why language is important and I think I confused us both.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww and actually getting my point over about her right to only have sex with people she fancies who fancy her in a mutually respectful happy manner.

I’ve attempted to discuss this with RL friends but as most of them gay or straight are in long term relationships of about 20 years they all think it’s a bit unnecessary. Maybe it’s because most of them who have kids have boys. Which frequently goes along with a porn, pfft whatever attitude.

I can’t decide if I’ve read too much about cotton ceiling, porn death grip in young men or whether I should be as concerned as I am. Young women seem to have a boatload of sexual expectation foisted on them which is waaaaaay beyond what was my experience 30 years ago. In the dark ages when those who trimmed or removed their pubic hair were considered most exotic and anal was only mentioned rarely in the context of a heterosexual experience.

Are my RL friends correct that I’m over concerned or are they out of touch with today’s reality? I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

mum did you read what fanny had linked? This girl clearly had not enjoyed the things that were done to her - and at that time did not have the confidence to say no. Amongst younger women many if not most will be equally lacking in confidence in this way. You can surely see how harmful this is for young women who are inexperienced sexually?

What happened to the idea that sex is an expression of love between two consenting adults? It seems to have become an exercise in control, coercion and about performance. I find it horrifying. Reality shows are now showing couples actually having sex for the entertainment of the gawping public all so the participants can become rich and famous. It beggars belief.

I would not be young now for anything, and I feel very sorry both for young women who have become objectified subjects for male gratification, and young men who think that porn is what sex should be about. I find it beyond sad.

Other people are not involved, so it's none of their business and 'mainstream' does not come into it.

It's ridiculous to pretend that people's - and particularly teenagers' - sexual experiences are in no way shaped or influenced by what they see as 'normal' and their perception of 'what everyone else is doing'.

It's an issue that worries me a lot, particularly for a younger generation of women (though I also think/worry a lot about how to bring up my currently baby son in a world that seems determined to encourage him towards violence and misogyny). There's no doubt things have changed even in the last decade, and it's not for the better.

You see it a lot in some of the most horrific rape cases - the defence will argue that it's completely plausible that a random woman, randomly encountering a big group of men, decided that violent group sex with these strangers was exactly what she wanted and no one goes 'hang on, is that likely?'. I have no desire to criticise women who do want to do just that (though they, quite sensibly, normally seem to have safer ways of acting out these fantasies than 'with a bunch of strangers they met five minutes ago while very very drunk'), but the idea that this is so common as to be unremarkable has taken hold astonishingly quickly.

Mummoomoocow women enjoy porn too and their desires are influenced in just the same way?

I think there's a fairly good amount of research suggesting that this isn't the case.

Women are far less likely than men to watch porn regularly. When they do watch porn they tend to watch it with their partner, whereas men will watch it alone:
wheatley.byu.edu/porn-gap-differences-mens-womens-pornography-patterns-couple-relationships/

Porn made by women tends to involve more foreplay, and women in studies have reacted more positively to porn made by other women than that made by men (although women showed less arousal than men to all porn). Women can react in conflicted ways to porn made by men, with feelings of shame and discomfort. " This discordance may reflect that these women also reported more negative emotions, such as aversion, guilt, and shame, in response to the man-created compared to the woman-created films."
Also: "Women seem to subjectively react positively to stimuli that allow them to project themselves into the situation while men prefer stimuli enabling objectification of the actors"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739403/

Op if your dd has friends who are trans, male and attracted to women they are not lesbians. They are heterosexuals.
I would be making that boundary very, very clear, given the gaslighting and bullying of lesbian young women.

As to the rest of it, i have been mulling over it too. My oldest dd is 14, I am really worried that when she starts dating, the boys she goes out with may well watch porn. She has said that her classmates almost all shave off their body hair completely. These are young girls ! Somehow they have already got the message that pubic hair is horrible and must be removed. It is all in such huge contrast to my teenage years, I don’t know quite how to talk to her about it, but I do need to talk to her over the next few years.

It's ridiculous to pretend that people's - and particularly teenagers' - sexual experiences are in no way shaped or influenced by what they see as 'normal' and their perception of 'what everyone else is doing'.

That's not what I meant, and from your last paragraph it's clear that we have the same opinion on the harmfulness of putting the concept into people's minds that violent sex is 'mainstream'.

That's really interesting what a pp said, in many cultures sex has been seen as something for men to enjoy and women to be used for, and we really are heading that way again. Between not being allowed to be gc, not allowed to 'kink shame', not allowed to have a natural body, not allowed to object to stuff we don't like, it's not being forced in, ie by law, but it's creeping in, via porn culture. I was on the sex board here last night and a poster was looking for advice because her dp will only finish in her mouth, because he likes to see himself come. He doesn't give a fuck that she is not into it, and he is not some random bloke, they have been together years! We can dismiss him as just one selfish arsehole, but he is an example of the way things are going for lots of women.

Lang's beaten me to it and posted a link to the BMJ study.

Take home messages from it: only a minority of women enjoy anal. Most women are either "meh" (not entirely surprising, since we don't have a prostate) or find it painful. However (and this is where it becomes scary) many young men expect to have anal as almost a sexual right, and what's more, expect this knowing that their partners are unlikely to enjoy it and may well find it painful. They expect to have to coerce their partners into acquiescing.

How did we (collective we) get into this absolutely shitty mindset as a society? Porn has a huge amount to do with it.

Re. porn, saying "well, some women watch it too" isn't an answer. Many women do many things which are not in women's best interests - like supporting bans on abortion, encouraging their daughters to give abusive marriages "one last try, you have to work at marriage, you know", buying glossy mags which foster eating disorders. Just because a woman has chosen to do something doesn't mean it's a healthy or good choice - and choices don't take place in a vacuum, they take place against a social background: shaming girls for not being cool, not being "sex-positive" (a weasel phrase which now means "putting up with any sex the man wants", rather than any genuine sense of positivity, i.e. centred round the desires of both partners), shaming girls for "kink shaming" (again, not putting up with any sexual act the man wants), and of course, that age-old favourite, "you would if you loved me."

As for what to do about boys - well, I'm explaining (in as age-appropriate a way as I can - love the swimming pool analogy upthread) that porn isn't real, that some of it is downright nasty and made by people who hate women, that sex is lovely if done right, but "doing it right" includes liking and respecting your partner, and only doing stuff that both of you really, really want to do.

And also (as we head for the teen years) taking absolutely no shit and backchat from my son. He has to respect women, and that starts with me. I have a complete zero tolerance attitude to disrespect. (It's not that hard on the whole, because he's a nice lad, but occasionally we do get the "acting up to show off in front of your friends" crap, and that results in the router being switched off and a complete bollocking from me.)

The way teenagers are taught about sex needs to change completely, at the minute the message in society is that girls take it and boys have to be sex gods who are up for it all the time, and if they’re not they’re gay.

I personally didn’t have any sex education at school, the only discussion we had at home was that if we has sex before we were married we would forever burn in hell. I then moved out at 17 and was let loose, I had an amazing few years, how I avoided catching anything is a miracle.

Young people need decent education about what sex is actually like, we need to move away from teaching sex ed as a purely reproductive issue. It shouldn’t stop at secondary school either, it needs to continue in college and possibilly even university.

But we also need to make sure all young people have access to good quality sex and relationship education, at the moment some groups still get no sex education at all, if I was a pupil at school now I wouldn’t be able to access sex education.

But all in all, we can only normalise normal sex if we’re open and talk about it

The trick is to ask on dating sites if they like porn. Most men, surprisingly, will say yes, even though they are in their 50s. Now whether they feel the need to respond in this manner I don't know, but frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Say yes to that and your're out!

I got my sex education from the nuns, who were surprisingly more open minded than the teachers and Encyclopedia Britannia. Both said that teenage sex was exciting but to be wary that this was a time when sexuality was part of your changing body, puberty. You were always told that saying no was a choice and not to take any nonsense if you weren't comfortable with it.

My dc, female and male, chant at me "Consent Is Everything". They understand the cup of tea analogy.

Yet I am still concerned - particularly for my dds. Do they truly understand consent? Do they truly understand that they do not have to consent? I hope they will never have a partner who guilts them or shames them into 'consenting'.

But female socialisation is so strong. How many times do we hear "I didn't like to refuse...", "I felt I ought to..."? How often do we read AIBUs where the woman is second-guessing herself and uncertain whether her boundaries are reasonable?

I am so relieved that I am not 20 years younger.

Girls are now expected to perform the role of porn actress, and their own pleasure is completely irrelevant.

I am glad that in my day (I'm early 30s) there was at least an expectation on men that they were meant to consider whether their partner also had a good time.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I really appreciate it. A lot to think about! I think I’ll continue to work on your body your choice with a side helping of learning about all the many varied forms of coercion.

The many threads on here from grown women in long or short term relationships who are being subjected to sexual coercion horrify me. I’ve been there. Me who is opinionated and feminist and still fell into it. Im not saying that to be oh it shouldn’t have happened to me, it’s more it can happen to any woman, we are all vulnerable. I’m not sure how to make my daughters immune but I really want to try.

Female socialisation - yes, it absolutely is embedded in this problem.

LangCleg that link is horrifying in the true sense of the word. It needs to go viral!

I recently went out with my friends new stepdaughter who is 21. She had a melt down about not knowing how to meet boys and only meeting them online then them just wanting porn style sex. She is at a major uni. Seems the skill of chatting to someone in a pub has all but disappeared and even on a uni campus they still go online to meet each other which I found totally bizarre. Where has the thrill of the chase gone? I have two young daughters and it terrifies me. The whole anal thing as well, in my view it's for things to go down not up (!) how it has got to this I do not know and I just hope there are people teaching their sons to respect girls because society as whole doesn't.

I seriously believe that women will just check out of dating altogether

i would if i was single and these sorts of partners were all that was available.

Im in my 40s and the removal of pubic hair wasnt even on the radar in the 80s and 90s

@CatalogueUniverse there is a shocking thread running on the Relationships board ATM

Reading all this makes me just want to crawl under a rock. It's all so depressing. I can't believe we're here, I really can't.

I seriously believe that women will just check out of dating altogether

i would if i was single and these sorts of partners were all that was available

^

Totally agree.

Just the thought of some idiot expecting a load of anal and choking makes me want to just have a bath and read a book.

However (and this is where it becomes scary) many young men expect to have anal as almost a sexual right, and what's more, expect this knowing that their partners are unlikely to enjoy it and may well find it painful. They expect to have to coerce their partners into acquiescing.

^

These men are our sons. How the hell have we got here? Porn had had huge influence over this, but its the coercion that bothers me. As if it's their right.

Men in their 60/70's can be misogynistic, but these entitled young men have a different set of expectations beyond theirs.

There was a good episode of Sex Education about this. TBF, I didn't like everything about that show, but the episode about the girl trying to please her boyfriend, but then learning that her needs are important too was really interesting.

I think there is a lot of pressure, but I have also met a lot of very intelligent, thoughtful teenagers who have more critical thought about sex these days than I did as a teenager. That's really nice to see.

@managedmis Ive mostly dated older men and married one and ive found them to be much less so than ones my own age or younger. IME they dont tend to cherry pick the bits of equality that suit them unlike many younger ones who are all for going halves on the cost of a date cos its equality right oh but wait i dont want the bit of equality that means you dont shave your legs darling You can keep that bit.! And there arent as many willing to go halves on childcare as there are on cost of dates. Its nothing to do with feminism There is a good thread on here "Expectations of mothers includes financial abuse" which goes into it even more. We have got women saving for their own maternity leave despite having a partner!!

DH is 69 and thinks the shit that goes on now ( he gets chapter and verse from me about some of the threads on here) is crazy. He couldnt care less whether i shave legs or not.

I think you are right to be concerned. Most of my sex education can from hardcore erotic fanfiction about rape, incest, somnophilia, abuse, torture, bestiality, the whole lot, before I was even sexually active. Definitely skewed my idea of sex.

I even wrote a necrophiliac fanfiction about Frodo and Gollum from Lord of The Rings when I was 13. In some ways, I think fanfic is worse for young girls than porn - it's just words so it's seen as more acceptable, fanfic is so easily accessible too, there's something sinister in that it's seen as just a story or not real because it's written with fictional characters.

and what's more, expect this knowing that their partners are unlikely to enjoy it and may well find it painful. They expect to have to coerce their partners into acquiescing

And oral sex is definitely considered the norm. It's expected that you will give oral sex regularly in a relationship with younger men. The ones I've been with anyway. We also need to teach young women to be assertive about getting their sexual needs met when they are sexually active - the amount of men I've slept with who think penetration is enough, don't understand that every vagina is different and just go "well all the other women I've have sex with have orgasmed just from my penis so it must be you who has the problem" "my dick should be enough"

The amount that expect oral sex to be performed on them as standard, but wouldn't dream of EVER giving oral sex back to a female partner is astounding.