Young women and sexual expectations of their partners

[CatalogueUniverse]

I’ve been reading a lot recently about the sexual expectations that young women are being confronted with when dating. I’ve also read a number of threads on here by women who after ending a long term relationship have gone back into dating and been somewhat surprised at the sexual acts that are considered mainstream which was also my experience when I ventured out after the breakdown of my long marriage.

I’m grasping (weakly) at the concept that it would be very easy for women of any sexuality who have been in a long term relationship to dismiss the concerns of those who are being subjected to a very different experience.

I have daughters rapidly heading towards adulthood. One of which is lesbian. She is a fabulous young woman with a developed sense of justice and rights and has a small number of lesbian friends - some of which are trans girls - for the sake of clarity, born male, identifies as female. Lovely kids all, one is dating a female lesbian. This has made me think even harder about talking to my daughter about sexual preferences , being comfortable with the sex you have, why your body is yours and shouldn’t be used to make someone else feel good at your expense. All of which I would want her to know about regardless of the sex of her partner but as she has expressed a clear preference for female bodied women while simultaneously supporting trans women are women and expressing confusion about this relationship and whether it is homo/hetero/pan sexual there’s a lot going on. I ended up saying that there is a spectrum of sexuality, Kinsey style with some people being at the absolute heterosexual end and some being at the absolute homosexual end and others somewhere in the middle. I did veer off into a mess about how more boxes create more divides and also why language is important and I think I confused us both.

I’m walking a fine line between her switching off and thinking I’m a dreadful old rad fem who talks about sex- eww and actually getting my point over about her right to only have sex with people she fancies who fancy her in a mutually respectful happy manner.

I’ve attempted to discuss this with RL friends but as most of them gay or straight are in long term relationships of about 20 years they all think it’s a bit unnecessary. Maybe it’s because most of them who have kids have boys. Which frequently goes along with a porn, pfft whatever attitude.

I can’t decide if I’ve read too much about cotton ceiling, porn death grip in young men or whether I should be as concerned as I am. Young women seem to have a boatload of sexual expectation foisted on them which is waaaaaay beyond what was my experience 30 years ago. In the dark ages when those who trimmed or removed their pubic hair were considered most exotic and anal was only mentioned rarely in the context of a heterosexual experience.

Are my RL friends correct that I’m over concerned or are they out of touch with today’s reality? I’d really appreciate your thoughts.

Two pre-teen dses here, and I'm starting from the premise that if it's not an ENTHUSIASTIC yes, it's a no. The idea of my lovely boys thinking they're entitled to whine and pressure and coerce young women horrifies me. Not on my watch.

This thread has helped me realise why I find all the 'sex positive' stuff on social media so tedious. It's not really positive in the sense of joyous mutual discovery of pleasure, it's performative.

'Look at me, I'm so cool and adventurous. Look at me, I've got a kink! Look at meeeeeee...'

Wanted to chime in as pp above that this isn’t just about parenting daughters. The daughters who will need to grow up with the confidence to say no will be saying no to young men, some of them may be your sons. If you have a son you have an obligation to teach them about healthy relationships (including sex!). It’s just as much for your son’s benefit as it is to protect the women he will go on to date. My children are young but I am trying to get these lessons in early-don’t touch unless you have permission, be careful how you move your body around other people-you don’t want to inadvertently hurt them through careless movements, it’s important to make sure that you think about what other people want and help them get it, if some asks you to not do something to/around them you don’t do it, modelling realistic expectations re appearance (e.g. not removing body hair or not wearing make up), not normalising internet use etc.

teawamutu so much of modern life is performative.

It's grim.

Who cares if you have a kink? Literally no one. Literally bored of hearing about it.

This is so intrinsically linked to female socialisation imo - girls struggle to say no because bizarrely they almost see it as rude to say “what the hell, no way” when their boyfriends expect anal or choking or whatever. It’s about being confident in setting your own boundaries AND in recognising that it’s not rude to assert them.

As a non sexual example, if your daughter was sat on an almost empty bus and a man came and sat next to her instead of choosing one of the many empty seats, do you think she’d have the confidence to get up and move? Would she stay put to avoid making a scene? Or possibly she’d pretend it was her stop and then wait for the next bus?

I haven't read the whole (terrifying) thread but what jumps out at me, if the gross expectations of women are so commonplace and regarded as normal, why would young girls want a relationship with a young man? What on earth is in it for them?

I am middle aged, married, and would not bother seeking a new relationship if I wasn't married, but when I was younger at least you had a bit of romance, and sex was sensual and cooperative, now it seems mechanical and geared very much to men's wants and desires. How depressing.

Yes Molton! And in the bus example you might hope that the driver would do something if it got really bad but in the bedroom when you’re in a vulnerable position with someone who can easily overpower you it becomes infinitely more difficult to enforce boundaries.

You’re already naked in bed with him. Do you say no, and if they keep pressing do you stick to the no, what if they force you anyway? Is it safer to just endure then get out vs risk it turning violent. Or do you ‘just’ risk social shaming from your peers when he tells everyone you’re a prude and a tease (or will he just tell everyone you’re a s**t if you do it anyway) These are all things I’ve personally had to calculate in my head in a matter or seconds when my boundaries were pushed and it wasn’t for anything as extreme as choking so I worry for my daughters.

The daughters who will need to grow up with the confidence to say no will be saying no to young men, some of them may be your sons. If you have a son you have an obligation to teach them about healthy relationships (including sex!).

Yes, this. And not the boundary-annihilating, sex-posi, queer theory bunkum either. They need to know about consent but they also need to know that consent being given isn't the end of the story - it's only the beginning with regard to fulfilling your partner.

PeoplesFront, I'm too old to have had to worry about that shit in my life, but if I put myself in the situation I see myself rolling over and out of bed and putting my clothes on and never coming back.

I know leaving is dangerous too, maybe I don't have a good sense of how dangerous these days.

So is that reaction yet another thing from a completely different time and place, something that is no longer even on the map now?

As a non sexual example, if your daughter was sat on an almost empty bus and a man came and sat next to her instead of choosing one of the many empty seats, do you think she’d have the confidence to get up and move? Would she stay put to avoid making a scene? Or possibly she’d pretend it was her stop and then wait for the next bus?

I am in my 30s, very aware of boundaries and female socialisation etc, and if this happened to me, I would pretend that it's my stop, get off and wait for the next one.

It's hard because, we're socialised to be "nice"; getting up and moving makes a very deliberate statement to the man of "you are an intruder/threat", which he will probably take as an afront (even though he fully intended it to be an intrusion) and he'll get mad at your "resistance", then probably he'll make a scene. It's awful we need to teach girls to weigh up all those negative likely outcomes

And oral sex is definitely considered the norm. It's expected that you will give oral sex regularly in a relationship with younger men.

I don't think this is new or just a thing with younger men. It was a well established idea by the time I was in university and I think for some time before that. Not just women giving it to men either, there are all kinds of examples I can think of where men are expected to give it to women. I think if someone said they felt it was too much they'd be looked on as a bit loopy by 99% of adults.

I haven't really ever heard any substantial questioning of it, ever. To me though it looks like it became normalised in much the same way other sexual practices like shaving or anal have. There was a time when it wasn't considered as something you'd ask of a woman you respected but that is long in the past.

Not just women giving it to men either, there are all kinds of examples I can think of where men are expected to give it to women.

My experience with many men (not just experience but through comments and talk as a teen/young adult) is that women giving oral to men is deemed normal and standard, but that actually other men get shit if they admit they give oral to a female, or they simply think "I don't want to put my mouth where other men have cum in her" (literal words).

With oral, my experience has been that if I tell a guy I do not enjoy giving oral they don't care, they still expect it.

I can't say I have ever experienced that. But I have seen plenty of examples of articles in both men's and women's magazines saying that oral sex should be a basic expectation and doing it well is important.

TBH, I think this whole area of expectation is trickier than people sometimes want to acknowledge. Is it wrong to have a general expectation of sex in what is understood as a sexual relationship? What does that look like if things change, what are the obligations of the partners to each other? What counts as "normal" and what should cross a line?

I dont think this only affects younger women. It could also be the reason why many older women stay in okay marriages or stay on their own.
They have seen seen all this shit in RL and/or on internet forums like this one so seen all that is expected now and thought

no fucking way no thanks.

"I am in my 30s, very aware of boundaries and female socialisation etc, and if this happened to me, I would pretend that it's my stop, get off and wait for the next one."

That's sad. I'm sorry you feel like this.

I hope you have a chance to practise doing this in a safe way, eg on a crowded bus or one where you are near the driver.

Where I live (Asia) it is so normal to get up and move seats for whatever reason, so I have gotten used to it. I wouldn't even think twice about doing it in the UK these days, though I definitely used to.

I got up and moved on the tube in London IAmAlways.

The man who had sat next to me followed me down the carriage and assaulted me.

I always get off now.

orchid I hope you don't think I was saying what women ought to do. We all make our own choices. I just feel sad it's still such an issue cos men are such arseholes.

Sorry for your experience.

Oh no, I didn't read it like that at all! I'm just relaying my experience (and thanks for the sympathy )

Another modern phenomenon Ghosting. Stupid terminology for something that is immature rude and disrespectful.

Im married but there is no way id ever use a dating site if i became single. Not a chance.
ive sort of already checked out.

Men have desires that are influenced by porn. That’s true. But that is not a bad thing if they are good people and listen to their sexual partners.

Except porn displays women as commoditised objects with which men can do as they please. Research shows that male teenagers who use internet porn see a correlation between it and actual sex. How many times in porn do you see consent being asked for? Yet men expect to replicate these acts, develop erectile dysfunction and porn death grip, and expect women to cede to anal sex as it's the only way to replicate the tightness. Also in porn, the females pleasure is cast aside. Commoditised objects as I said.

DD is pan, 19, and has firm boundaries about what she is, and is not, comfortable with and clings to her boundaries. DS is heavily against porn, has realistic expectations of sex, and shows the utmost respect.

women giving oral to men is deemed normal and standard, but that actually other men get shit if they admit they give oral to a female

With oral, my experience has been that if I tell a guy I do not enjoy giving oral they don't care, they still expect it.

Pretty much.

Or you get the guys that fetishise giving oral sex to women. Because in their heads it’s all about them and their performance.

I would say I’ve come across them, but it would be lies . I have unfortunately experienced this on more than one occasion. Man fetishises female orgasm as a validation of his sexual prowess. It’s horrible.

Ive seen posters post about their DHs erectile dysfunction on the Relationships board and if the poster dares to mention they have put on a bit of weight the focus is all on that.

And even if the poster doesnt mention weight , whatever shes posted about ..........ED, DH gone of sex etc someone will always ask.........

Has your appearance changed?
Have you put on weight?
Every Time.

I have never heard of men being given shit for giving oral. And I hang out with a lot of men (or did when I was younger). It's definitely just seen as a normal and boring part of sex with the people I know.

I definitely have.

I don't think it's just young men either. A friend of mine (late 40's) has dipped a toe into OLD following the end of a long term relationship.
She has found it incredibly depressing. Very sex focused and shallow.
Men's profiles quite openly state the kind of sex/relationship they're into and very few seem vanilla shall we say. Grim.
She's stopped looking as it was too dispiriting.