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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being a homosexual female in a community of queer people, transbians and penis-inclusionary lesbians

211 replies

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 01:06

Firstly, sorry, that this is a much longer post than I anticipated. I originally wanted to write a post mainly aimed at other lesbians who are struggling with everything that’s going on at the moment with the queer movement but it was difficult to find anywhere to put it that was anonymous, not a ‘queer’ space and not a specifically radfem space and it morphed into a rather longer post and a bit different than I intended once I started writing it down.

To be clear, when I’m talking about lesbians I mean female homosexuals – biological women who are only attracted to other biological women. The meaning of the term has been changed a lot. At first, it was just males who identify as women and sometimes their female wives/partners who were calling themselves lesbians - The term lesbian was pretty unpopular generally until very recently, with queer being the more acceptable alternative for women. However, over the past year or so, the word lesbian has started being used a lot and its meaning expanded much further. For example, it is used as an umbrella term for all lesbian, bi, queer, pangender, feminine-identified people and also just as an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (so you can get couples who are both opposite sex and opposite gender e.g. a transman and a transwoman who identify as lesbians, people who don’t identify as being women identifying as lesbians, he/him lesbians etc).

I’m someone who came out as a lesbian a long time ago. Although I’m out to most people in my life, I don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me. I think there’s some stuff that straight people would understand (like that I lost my job because of my sexuality and had no legal recourse because it wasn’t illegal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation) and some that I think is difficult to understand if you haven’t experienced it or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.)

When I was able to move away to a city, I finally met other LGB people - and, while the community was male dominated and often misogynistic, I was with other people who had had similar experiences to me, felt a sense of belonging and we worked to build the community, support others coming out and fight for our rights.

Over time things seemed to be getting better, for me personally in finding my community, but attitudes and laws had changed too. It wasn’t perfect, of course – I’d be cautious about who I was out to, or if I held my girlfriend’s hand in public but that was okay. I’d compare it to the way women have to be cautious and security conscious in ways that don’t even occur to men. Yes, it shouldn’t happen but it becomes so much second nature that it’s normal and you don’t really think about it. I could accept the past and everything that had happened to me because things were improving and we had fought for that change so that younger lesbians wouldn’t have to experience what we had gone through.

Seeing what is happening now, especially for younger (female homosexual) lesbians, I have found it difficult to accept that my past and what I had experienced was actually probably as good as it got for lesbians. I saw similar things, similar perceptions about lesbians, that I’d heard back in the bad old days returning disguised in woke language – and coming out of the mouths of self-identified progressive, queer people who claimed to be part of my community. I saw everything going backwards for lesbians, while from the outside it looked like everything was still there – that we had our rights, our community, our organisations, our venues, our Pride celebrations, which were actually now filled with queer-identified people embracing their chosen identities and kinks, and waving their rainbow flags around, while the gay men largely carried as normal, unaffected, or even enjoying the opportunity to put the boot into lesbians.

When I was growing up, it was being same-sex attracted and having relationships with women that was considered immoral and that attitude came from outside the LGB community but now it is not being attracted to males and not being open to relationships with men that is considered wrong. So there are plenty of people who are involved in the queer movement who embrace the notion of same-sex activity between women (from women who are actually bisexual to those who will put on a bit of a show for the men as part of a queer, kinky lifestyle to others who adopt the language but only actually get involved with biological males) as long as you are also open to sex with males.

It started more subtly maybe about 12 -15 years ago with the message that sexuality was fluid and the slogan ‘hearts not parts’ repeatedly appearing in articles on lesbian sites (now rebranded as queer women’s sites) – and they did make it sound to me like it was a better, purer, more progressive way to be - to be open-minded and willing to love the right person for their heart, regardless of their sex. It didn’t occur to me at the time that I was only ever seeing this slogan on lesbian sites – that out of the four groups of people only attracted to one sex, it was only lesbians who were being bombarded with the idea that we could change our sexual orientation and become nicer, better people by being open to sex with men. After a while of seeing this message from ‘my community’, I decided that I should at least be open-minded about the possibility of a relationship with a man so, for a period, I went around being open to feeling attraction to men… to no effect. I didn’t meet any men I felt attracted to so in practice the open-minded thing didn’t make any difference to me. (Back then it was only about considering men as possible sexual partners and someone you could potentially be attracted to, not encouraging you to overcome your feelings and ‘try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it’ or advising you that ‘if you repeatedly have sex with someone with a penis you could learn to cope with it’.)

It is only more recently that this message about a positive, superior, open-minded sexuality has also been combined with openly negative comments about perverted, weird ‘genital fetishists’ (a lot of which echoes views about lesbians from when I was younger, that I thought we’d moved past) – and I also started seeing this happening in real life, not just online – although I may have been slow to see it and younger women in university and youth clubs probably experienced it a lot sooner. The message was that sexuality was fluid, everyone had the potential to be attracted to both/all sexes/genders and not being attracted to males was a kind of prejudice (both anti-trans and anti-male) or a personality flaw that we could and should overcome. It is (for now) only not being open to transwomen’s ‘girld*cks’ that makes you a TERF and that will get you actually excluded and possibly attacked but not being open to sex with males who still identify as men can also attract criticism and get you rounded on by queer people.

Around this time, I became involved in gender critical feminism and then later came into contact with radical feminists and lesbian feminists and again the belief that being a lesbian was a choice (albeit a positive one) and that lesbians had been taken in by a politically-expedient narrative that sexual orientation was fixed.

A few years ago, I couldn’t have imagined myself questioning my sexuality like I have been doing - these kind of issues were mainly experienced by people who were just coming out, and I used to be someone who supported women in that situation. But there were so many messages from different sources – including sources that I had thought of previously as ‘on my side’ - that sexuality was fluid, that everyone had the potential to experience attraction to both sexes and being a lesbian was a choice I had made. I can’t really explain how I ended up thinking the things I did because it didn’t tally with my experience and the experiences of other lesbians I knew but so much of what I thought I knew and where I had felt safe and accepted for years had been turned upside down – my sense of belonging in the LGBT community, that we had a shared ‘cause’, my faith in organisations I’d trusted, my belief in and belonging to the left - that I just didn’t know what to think anymore ….and I was questioning everything I believed or thought I knew or trusted in.

I knew I hadn’t made a conscious, deliberate choice to be a lesbian but if it wasn’t something that was just natural for me – and if everyone had the potential for opposite sex attraction - the only way I could make sense of it was that I’d made a mistake when I was a kid – that I’d mistaken feelings of friendship or admiration for girls for something else and accidentally sent myself down this path by labelling myself as (or fearing myself to be) a lesbian and accidentally shutting off the feelings I could otherwise have developed for the opposite sex. This really played on my mind and I felt so angry at myself at the thought that I’d done this all to myself – all the shit that had happened when I was younger and everything that was happening now - that I started hurting myself, which was the start of a downward spiral. After feeling okay and even fairly optimistic about things a few years ago, I hated being a lesbian and all the crap that went with it and really struggled with the idea that I could have had a different life and none of this needed to have happened.

Radical and lesbian feminism provided an alternative to the negative views about lesbians from the queer community, with the message that being a lesbian was a wonderful, happy choice that improved your life but this was just so alien to my experience, and especially where I was at that time. Even the supposed positives didn’t ring true to my life - like that it provided a woman-centred life, when being a lesbian had led me to be separated from and sometimes shunned by other women who felt uncomfortable around lesbians.

I wanted – and knew I needed – to get help to deal with all of this but the LGBT organisations which offered the support, counselling and mental health services for sexuality issues were no longer somewhere I felt I would be safe, let alone supported.

Since then, I’ve found some support elsewhere and am working through this but I’m also trying to work out where I go from here and where I belong.

My response to everything that was going on had been to run away from all the crap in the LGBTQ community and replace it in my life with gender critical feminist groups. I’ve met some brilliant, inspiring, lovely women through the trans issue and I feel I have to stay involved because it’s too important and now is too critical a time not to.

But I also think I need to find a way to stay engaged with what is left of the lesbian community, with people I have shared experience with and a shared culture and history. I know I am a lot more fortunate than many younger lesbians whose lives and friendship groups are much more embroiled in the trans and queer ideology.

Where previously very few of us dared to speak about this issue, over the past year or so, I’ve had a number of lesbians talk to me privately about the trans issue or abuse they’ve received in the queer community for not being attracted to males, or tell me that they’ve signed a petition I shared online, and sometimes the trans topic has been cautiously brought up in public when everyone senses they are in safe company. Not all lesbians are as involved in this issue as I am but, while I know – and avoid – a couple of women who are full-on transactivist allies, everyone else has either shared my concerns or, if they don’t agree, they haven’t said anything or de-friended me.

This has been in sharp contrast to the way things are going in the LGBTQ community generally where the threats and policing of lesbians have got more explicit. Anti-TERF rhetoric from organisations, businesses and individuals has escalated massively with anti-TERF posters and speakers at LGBTQ events whipping crowds up against ‘TERFs’, calling for, at best, exclusion, but also for violence. Organisations and events are also increasingly introducing ‘safe spaces agreements’ - which you have to agree to go to an event or access a service – and which are all about pronouns and trans and queer identities and reporting any other service user or attendee who you view as ‘problematic’. They realise that lesbians are starting to discuss concerns and object as the demands and behaviour of the trans/queer group get more extreme so they need to make us feel too scared to share our experiences and discuss these issues openly.

There are layers to the LGBTQ community. At the centre are the LGBTQ organisations and groups and the ‘gay scene’ (mainly bars and clubs) which have been completely colonised (with collaboration from misogynistic gay men) and then there are more peripheral, less formal groups and then groups of lesbian/bi friends socialising away from the scene. It’s a bit of an oversimplification as life is always messier than that but generally, unless you’re in the younger age group, the further away from the centre you are, the better things are so that’s where I’ll be – away from the organisations, groups and bars that I used to consider my community and finding my community with other lesbians in non-queer spaces.

I know this doesn’t provide a solution for younger lesbians and I’ve no idea how long this will provide a solution for me. I could never had imagined a few years ago that we’d be in this position now – Hell, even a year ago, despite being gender critical, I couldn’t have imagined how much the situation would have escalated in such a short space of time. So I’ve no idea where we’ll be or what options there will be for lesbians in a few years’ time but I’m just trying to find ways to manage for now.

OP posts:
Muststopfaffing · 25/06/2019 09:12

I don’t really have anything new to add except to say we’re here to support you, and like others I am absolutely disgusted by the way lesbians are being treated by the very community they’re supposed to be able to find support in. It’s gaslighting on an epic scale and yet another aspect of this whole ideology that shows how it’s rotten through and through. No wonder young lesbians are transitioning at such a high rate.
I also think some sort of lesbian support thread, like the trans widows one is a great idea, and I suspect once word got out it would also be very popular.

NottonightJosepheen · 25/06/2019 09:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBunting · 25/06/2019 09:17

The Lesbian support thread is a great idea, but I'd like some assurances from MNHQ that it would be on the same respectful moderation understanding as the Transwidows and other threads where it's understood that opposition and colonization is bad form.
It would likely be too tempting for certain 'identifications' to resist unless (or even possibly because) the boundaries were really clear.

SophoclesTheFox · 25/06/2019 09:21

Thank you for that wonderful post, stillhere.

I still sometimes get taken unawares by how horrifying the situation has become for lesbians (the female homosexual kind). When I was growing up in a small town in the 80s, lesbians were vilified for not wanting sex with men. Then things improved for twenty years or so, and my lesbian friends flourished and were accepted and loved for who they were. Now, in 2019, lesbians are being vilified for not wanting sex with men, and people tell me this is progressive.

No. It’s regressive, lesbophobic, misogynistic male entitlement and I don’t give a shit if you put a frock on it.

Solidarity, sister. I’ll defend to the death your right to live your own sexuality, move in your own community with other lesbians and never have to justify one scrap of it to people who don’t even understand what they’re trying to colonise and degrade.

Yeahnahyeah · 25/06/2019 09:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BluebonicPlague · 25/06/2019 09:43

Very powerful and moving post, StillHere2019
This is one of those occasions when I wish MN had a 'Like' button so I could show solidarity without clogging up the thread with unhelpful verbiage. I can only imagine how frightened and isolated young lesbians must feel, and the amount of gaslighting is appalling. And no one is allowed to call it that anywhere that's woke. If there's anything straight women can do to lend support, I'm with you.

DuMondeB · 25/06/2019 09:43

woke Gilead indeed.

Thanks for posting *Stillhere - your testimony is very powerful and deserves to be more than just a forum post. Would you consider posting it on Medium? Or perhaps sending it to Dr Nic at Fair Play for Women?

I’m sorry you’ve not found quite the support you were hoping for in GC spaces - I think female sexuality can seem more flexible, partly because of the phenomenon of women settling down with other women later in life, after having kids in a heterorelationship and partly because of the concept political lesbian (although I really don’t think that’s much more than an idea nowadays - unless you are bisexual to begin with). For what it’s worth though, I think ‘hearts not parts’ is fucking stupid, there is nothing wrong with only wanting hearts that come with the parts that tally with your orientation, be that lesbian, gay or straight.

Thank you for doing what you can to look out for younger lesbians.

NottonightJosepheen · 25/06/2019 09:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedTrek · 25/06/2019 10:34

Thank you so much for this post. My heart is with you and all our lesbian sisters.

I wish all the woke straight women I saw wringing their hands over the Get the L Out protest at London Pride would read this and hang their heads in shame.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 25/06/2019 11:31

If anyone’s free on Friday morning & wants to stand up for young lesbians, there’s always this. www.standingforwomen.com/stonewall-out-of-school-sos

OvaHere · 25/06/2019 11:46

Thank you for posting. I find the whole situation beyond horrifying.

FlapsMagazine · 25/06/2019 12:17

Thank you for sharing. I wish I could chip in with something silver lining, but what you've written is sadly true for lots of my lesbian friends, from the one being sexually harrassed at work and being told by her union that nothing can be done as it's simply her word against his, to my step children still facing on street slurs because their mum came out later in life.

I never felt comfortable in the gay scene, too many men making the rules and lesbians and bi women being a foot note, lucky to get their own week-night at the local club. For a time I envied today's young women who were seemingly able to navigate away from the club scene and use modern technology to meet like minded women, something I'd have killed for in my early 20s. Disgusted to hear they're now seeing their timelines full of lady dick and abuse.

YomTov · 25/06/2019 12:18

This all sounds SO tough, OP, and I wish I had more I could say. I'm an older lesbian and have been lucky enough - despite living in a remote rural area - to have many lesbian friends, including among the GC group I'm involved with. So by reason of age (I'm probably a bit older than you) and chance, I've not had to go through what you've been dealing with. Strongly recommend what another poster suggested, of contacting Get the L out and the Lesbian Rights Alliance. Wishing you well.

Throckmorton · 25/06/2019 12:55

Oh StillHere, my heart goes out to you. Hugs. It's appalling what is being done and said to lesbians right now. If you need or want a straight ally, I'm here for you.

emerencealwayshopeful · 25/06/2019 13:08

Thank you for your words. I echo those suggesting publishing elsewhere if possible - the story you tell needs to be heard and understood.

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/06/2019 13:12

I hear you OP. I'm another homosexual female, totally pissed off at this new way for men to force women into sex, it is now literally being made socially unacceptable for women to make sexual choices that exclude males, regardless of their sexual orientation. And even on FWR I had an utter numpty last week call me 'homophobic' for saying lesbians were biological women exclusively attracted to other biological women, and trying to spin it for 'lesbian' to be a lovely label anyone can adopt if they like the feelz of the identity.

Fuck off. Fuck off to the far side of fuck with that silly, fluffy bullshit that is just sparkly man pleasing.

Many lesbian groups have gone under ground to escape the hostile takeovers they were experiencing from men. And they did initially in most cases welcome people with trans identities, and discovered, painfully, that 'inclusion' actually meant 'centering trans people, ceasing all discussion about anything but trans people, trans people taking over the leadership role and everything specific to actual biological women being called trans exclusionary and banned'. Basically rendering the group useless to actual lesbians.

I am now old enough and ugly enough to look any man in the eye and tell him what he can do with his fantasies and sense of entitlement and personal choice of identity, and put him straight about my right to exclude anything and anyone I want. My body is not penis inclusive, and hurt feelings about that and other aspects of empathy failure and basic social skills are something the hurt individual needs to take up with a good psychotherapist. But as a young lesbian - I'd have been so vulnerable to this shit. No wonder so many young lesbians are identifying as transmen or 'pan sexual' - it's the cry of 'just leave me the fuck alone' because people under those definitions are not relentlessly bullied by the trans lobby.

NellieEllie · 25/06/2019 13:22

Your post is so powerful.
It needs wider readership.
This is exactly how I’ve seen the current situation since I was peak transed. People with penises putting on dresses and saying the same stuff that men have said to lesbians for years. Only now it’s lauded by the woke, by the establishment and by the organisations who are meant to represent lesbians. I am outraged and incensed that it is not universally apparent, and my sadness and incomprehension when I see friends, lesbian and straight posting stonewall and TRA stuff on social media is hard to bear.
Your experience of the process and the “transition” in ideology is very powerful.
I just wonder - is there anyone who could publish this anonymously if you would be happy with that?

EmpressLesbianInChair · 25/06/2019 13:29

There’s a thread about the Stonewall protest here.

This is something concrete & helpful that lesbians & women who want to support us can get involved in if you can be in London on Friday.

SpitefulBreasts · 25/06/2019 13:37

Still hereI'm another one saying that your post is so powerful and heartbreaking to read and thank you for sharing your thoughts. What is being done to Lesbians now is disgraceful.

PickleC · 25/06/2019 13:49

OP thank you so much for your post and I am so sorry to hear about what you have been experiencing.

I can think back to all of the wonderful, strong, brilliant women I knew when I was at University who identified as lesbian and bi and am so thankful that they were able to grow into adults before all of this started to really kick in. None of us would have dreamed about a world where there would be this sort of pressure to form relationships or sleep with anyone where that didn't feel right or where it didn't match that person's sexuality - with that pressure coming from within the community itself.

I am straight but the thought of being told that I would need to sleep with women or be accused of prejudice is just madness. Something so personal is not for anyone else to force. It comes so close to taking consent back from lesbians and that terrifies me for younger women out there now, working out who they are.

For all those affected know that there are women who do not agree with what is happening and see it for what it is.

PlatypusPie · 25/06/2019 14:03

What an eloquent post . . I am a straight woman and many years ago, when it was LG and just about B, I shared a flat with a very out and proud gay man who was a close friend from childhood . I got to be a bit uncomfortable at the time with some of the disrespectful remarks and jokes that his male (gay) friends would make about lesbians - it was almost ‘ why would you choose to have sex that didn’t centre on the penis if you had the choice to attract straight men ‘ . I wonder much the male gay community ever really regarded lesbians as full allies.

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 25/06/2019 16:50

I'm another older lesbian who'd put 2 very negative real life experiences of trans women destroying women-only groups down to bad luck and isolated experiences. I now realise that both those people were AGP narcissists, doing what AGP narcissists do after gaining access to a group of well meaning women. Despite that I remained an ally to transsexuals, and was dismayed to read about the bathroom bills in the USA, which I assumed were motivated by intolerance and bigotry.

On International Women's Day last year I saw footage of a viciously aggressive mob of young people attacking a feminist on her picket line, egging each other on to violence and screaming in her face that she was a TERF. I googled the acronym TERF and was peak transed before I even reached the appalling cotton ceiling information.

Then I found out that young lesbians were being made to feel ashamed, that lesbianism was the most uncool option, and that young butches were under constant social pressure to transition. Because being a trans man is brave and stunning, while being a lesbian is old fashioned and gross. I've always had a weakness for butch women, and realising that they were being disappeared managed to simultaneously break my heart and fill me with rage.

When the get the L out women took their stand at London pride last year their bravery was a thrilling call to arms. There is a war on women, and once more, lesbians are in the vanguard. These few women appearing at pride marches, carrying their signs and flags in the face of such mindless hatred are living embodiments of true courage. All is not lost, there is a new freedom movement and it will grow as more women become aware.

I think a support thread on mumsnet for lesbians who are adult human females with a sexual orientation that restricts their partner choices to other adult human females would be a very good thing.

Meanwhile there are a few reddit groups for lesbians who don't do dick. r/gendercritlesbians, truelesbians and GetTheLOut. Then there's LGBDropTheT a rapidly growing new group, which includes gay and bisexual people who fiercely believe that LGB and T need to be separated.

ThePankhurstConnection · 25/06/2019 17:07

Thank you for your post, I deliberately made time to read it today as I think lesbian perspective in this is an important one.

I am straight but it was the cajoling and manipulation of lesbians over this issue which lead to my real concerns with the gender issue many years ago and prompted me to look further. I do not support women being coerced into attraction or sex in any way and while I am straight I consider women particularly important to me - and to lapse into feminism speak you are my sisters and I stand with you. I see how lesbians have been targeted and I am aware that they have had the most shit to deal with in society; the refusal to entertain men is considered an act of transgression in a patriarchal society.

So I hope you OP and all the other women on this thread who are lesbians know that large numbers of women stand with you and stand firm.

All women need to stand together now

StopThePlanet · 25/06/2019 17:33

I'm so disgusted by the cotton ceiling and all of the other shit rhetoric that has invaded LGB by way of T.

As a Bi woman - not 'identifying as' I just am: a biological woman who is Bi - we have always been seen as outside of the community... as interlopers. The use of my orientation as a tool really pisses me off. Bi people don't have sex or are attracted to just anyone, we get treated like throwaway whores as we are seen as not being able to pick a side (which is then assumed to be dishonest somehow, lots of conjecture). For me attraction isn't about the parts or about picking a side it is about attraction to (mostly) female and (some) male individuals - and I won't try to force myself to be attracted to someone I'm not in order to validate them.

Everyone has a right to exclude anyone from their sexual activity for any reason. Being Bi or Lesbian or Gay or Hetero isn't something you perform but part of who you are and your sexual tastes are yours to govern.

Lesbians - keep holding your line, I stand with you in solidarity. The louder your voices are the more allies you will see you have. I imagine there are a lot of Bi women like myself that have been discarded/excluded. I think many of our voices get lost in the fray or ignored when we don't tow the line expected of us... just like lesbians.

SOLIDARITY!!!

XenoBio · 25/06/2019 19:16

Awful, nobody is peddling that ''hearts not parts'' line to gay men. Only to lesbians.

More tellingly, no one is telling straight men to suck dick and take it up,the arse until,they,learn to tolerate,it.

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