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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being a homosexual female in a community of queer people, transbians and penis-inclusionary lesbians

211 replies

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 01:06

Firstly, sorry, that this is a much longer post than I anticipated. I originally wanted to write a post mainly aimed at other lesbians who are struggling with everything that’s going on at the moment with the queer movement but it was difficult to find anywhere to put it that was anonymous, not a ‘queer’ space and not a specifically radfem space and it morphed into a rather longer post and a bit different than I intended once I started writing it down.

To be clear, when I’m talking about lesbians I mean female homosexuals – biological women who are only attracted to other biological women. The meaning of the term has been changed a lot. At first, it was just males who identify as women and sometimes their female wives/partners who were calling themselves lesbians - The term lesbian was pretty unpopular generally until very recently, with queer being the more acceptable alternative for women. However, over the past year or so, the word lesbian has started being used a lot and its meaning expanded much further. For example, it is used as an umbrella term for all lesbian, bi, queer, pangender, feminine-identified people and also just as an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (so you can get couples who are both opposite sex and opposite gender e.g. a transman and a transwoman who identify as lesbians, people who don’t identify as being women identifying as lesbians, he/him lesbians etc).

I’m someone who came out as a lesbian a long time ago. Although I’m out to most people in my life, I don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me. I think there’s some stuff that straight people would understand (like that I lost my job because of my sexuality and had no legal recourse because it wasn’t illegal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation) and some that I think is difficult to understand if you haven’t experienced it or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.)

When I was able to move away to a city, I finally met other LGB people - and, while the community was male dominated and often misogynistic, I was with other people who had had similar experiences to me, felt a sense of belonging and we worked to build the community, support others coming out and fight for our rights.

Over time things seemed to be getting better, for me personally in finding my community, but attitudes and laws had changed too. It wasn’t perfect, of course – I’d be cautious about who I was out to, or if I held my girlfriend’s hand in public but that was okay. I’d compare it to the way women have to be cautious and security conscious in ways that don’t even occur to men. Yes, it shouldn’t happen but it becomes so much second nature that it’s normal and you don’t really think about it. I could accept the past and everything that had happened to me because things were improving and we had fought for that change so that younger lesbians wouldn’t have to experience what we had gone through.

Seeing what is happening now, especially for younger (female homosexual) lesbians, I have found it difficult to accept that my past and what I had experienced was actually probably as good as it got for lesbians. I saw similar things, similar perceptions about lesbians, that I’d heard back in the bad old days returning disguised in woke language – and coming out of the mouths of self-identified progressive, queer people who claimed to be part of my community. I saw everything going backwards for lesbians, while from the outside it looked like everything was still there – that we had our rights, our community, our organisations, our venues, our Pride celebrations, which were actually now filled with queer-identified people embracing their chosen identities and kinks, and waving their rainbow flags around, while the gay men largely carried as normal, unaffected, or even enjoying the opportunity to put the boot into lesbians.

When I was growing up, it was being same-sex attracted and having relationships with women that was considered immoral and that attitude came from outside the LGB community but now it is not being attracted to males and not being open to relationships with men that is considered wrong. So there are plenty of people who are involved in the queer movement who embrace the notion of same-sex activity between women (from women who are actually bisexual to those who will put on a bit of a show for the men as part of a queer, kinky lifestyle to others who adopt the language but only actually get involved with biological males) as long as you are also open to sex with males.

It started more subtly maybe about 12 -15 years ago with the message that sexuality was fluid and the slogan ‘hearts not parts’ repeatedly appearing in articles on lesbian sites (now rebranded as queer women’s sites) – and they did make it sound to me like it was a better, purer, more progressive way to be - to be open-minded and willing to love the right person for their heart, regardless of their sex. It didn’t occur to me at the time that I was only ever seeing this slogan on lesbian sites – that out of the four groups of people only attracted to one sex, it was only lesbians who were being bombarded with the idea that we could change our sexual orientation and become nicer, better people by being open to sex with men. After a while of seeing this message from ‘my community’, I decided that I should at least be open-minded about the possibility of a relationship with a man so, for a period, I went around being open to feeling attraction to men… to no effect. I didn’t meet any men I felt attracted to so in practice the open-minded thing didn’t make any difference to me. (Back then it was only about considering men as possible sexual partners and someone you could potentially be attracted to, not encouraging you to overcome your feelings and ‘try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it’ or advising you that ‘if you repeatedly have sex with someone with a penis you could learn to cope with it’.)

It is only more recently that this message about a positive, superior, open-minded sexuality has also been combined with openly negative comments about perverted, weird ‘genital fetishists’ (a lot of which echoes views about lesbians from when I was younger, that I thought we’d moved past) – and I also started seeing this happening in real life, not just online – although I may have been slow to see it and younger women in university and youth clubs probably experienced it a lot sooner. The message was that sexuality was fluid, everyone had the potential to be attracted to both/all sexes/genders and not being attracted to males was a kind of prejudice (both anti-trans and anti-male) or a personality flaw that we could and should overcome. It is (for now) only not being open to transwomen’s ‘girld*cks’ that makes you a TERF and that will get you actually excluded and possibly attacked but not being open to sex with males who still identify as men can also attract criticism and get you rounded on by queer people.

Around this time, I became involved in gender critical feminism and then later came into contact with radical feminists and lesbian feminists and again the belief that being a lesbian was a choice (albeit a positive one) and that lesbians had been taken in by a politically-expedient narrative that sexual orientation was fixed.

A few years ago, I couldn’t have imagined myself questioning my sexuality like I have been doing - these kind of issues were mainly experienced by people who were just coming out, and I used to be someone who supported women in that situation. But there were so many messages from different sources – including sources that I had thought of previously as ‘on my side’ - that sexuality was fluid, that everyone had the potential to experience attraction to both sexes and being a lesbian was a choice I had made. I can’t really explain how I ended up thinking the things I did because it didn’t tally with my experience and the experiences of other lesbians I knew but so much of what I thought I knew and where I had felt safe and accepted for years had been turned upside down – my sense of belonging in the LGBT community, that we had a shared ‘cause’, my faith in organisations I’d trusted, my belief in and belonging to the left - that I just didn’t know what to think anymore ….and I was questioning everything I believed or thought I knew or trusted in.

I knew I hadn’t made a conscious, deliberate choice to be a lesbian but if it wasn’t something that was just natural for me – and if everyone had the potential for opposite sex attraction - the only way I could make sense of it was that I’d made a mistake when I was a kid – that I’d mistaken feelings of friendship or admiration for girls for something else and accidentally sent myself down this path by labelling myself as (or fearing myself to be) a lesbian and accidentally shutting off the feelings I could otherwise have developed for the opposite sex. This really played on my mind and I felt so angry at myself at the thought that I’d done this all to myself – all the shit that had happened when I was younger and everything that was happening now - that I started hurting myself, which was the start of a downward spiral. After feeling okay and even fairly optimistic about things a few years ago, I hated being a lesbian and all the crap that went with it and really struggled with the idea that I could have had a different life and none of this needed to have happened.

Radical and lesbian feminism provided an alternative to the negative views about lesbians from the queer community, with the message that being a lesbian was a wonderful, happy choice that improved your life but this was just so alien to my experience, and especially where I was at that time. Even the supposed positives didn’t ring true to my life - like that it provided a woman-centred life, when being a lesbian had led me to be separated from and sometimes shunned by other women who felt uncomfortable around lesbians.

I wanted – and knew I needed – to get help to deal with all of this but the LGBT organisations which offered the support, counselling and mental health services for sexuality issues were no longer somewhere I felt I would be safe, let alone supported.

Since then, I’ve found some support elsewhere and am working through this but I’m also trying to work out where I go from here and where I belong.

My response to everything that was going on had been to run away from all the crap in the LGBTQ community and replace it in my life with gender critical feminist groups. I’ve met some brilliant, inspiring, lovely women through the trans issue and I feel I have to stay involved because it’s too important and now is too critical a time not to.

But I also think I need to find a way to stay engaged with what is left of the lesbian community, with people I have shared experience with and a shared culture and history. I know I am a lot more fortunate than many younger lesbians whose lives and friendship groups are much more embroiled in the trans and queer ideology.

Where previously very few of us dared to speak about this issue, over the past year or so, I’ve had a number of lesbians talk to me privately about the trans issue or abuse they’ve received in the queer community for not being attracted to males, or tell me that they’ve signed a petition I shared online, and sometimes the trans topic has been cautiously brought up in public when everyone senses they are in safe company. Not all lesbians are as involved in this issue as I am but, while I know – and avoid – a couple of women who are full-on transactivist allies, everyone else has either shared my concerns or, if they don’t agree, they haven’t said anything or de-friended me.

This has been in sharp contrast to the way things are going in the LGBTQ community generally where the threats and policing of lesbians have got more explicit. Anti-TERF rhetoric from organisations, businesses and individuals has escalated massively with anti-TERF posters and speakers at LGBTQ events whipping crowds up against ‘TERFs’, calling for, at best, exclusion, but also for violence. Organisations and events are also increasingly introducing ‘safe spaces agreements’ - which you have to agree to go to an event or access a service – and which are all about pronouns and trans and queer identities and reporting any other service user or attendee who you view as ‘problematic’. They realise that lesbians are starting to discuss concerns and object as the demands and behaviour of the trans/queer group get more extreme so they need to make us feel too scared to share our experiences and discuss these issues openly.

There are layers to the LGBTQ community. At the centre are the LGBTQ organisations and groups and the ‘gay scene’ (mainly bars and clubs) which have been completely colonised (with collaboration from misogynistic gay men) and then there are more peripheral, less formal groups and then groups of lesbian/bi friends socialising away from the scene. It’s a bit of an oversimplification as life is always messier than that but generally, unless you’re in the younger age group, the further away from the centre you are, the better things are so that’s where I’ll be – away from the organisations, groups and bars that I used to consider my community and finding my community with other lesbians in non-queer spaces.

I know this doesn’t provide a solution for younger lesbians and I’ve no idea how long this will provide a solution for me. I could never had imagined a few years ago that we’d be in this position now – Hell, even a year ago, despite being gender critical, I couldn’t have imagined how much the situation would have escalated in such a short space of time. So I’ve no idea where we’ll be or what options there will be for lesbians in a few years’ time but I’m just trying to find ways to manage for now.

OP posts:
DuMondeB · 13/07/2019 13:28

Women aren’t retreating to corners, we’re holding public meetings, documented and available to view online.
We aren’t shouting at anyone.

RobinMoiraWhite · 13/07/2019 13:50

I understand the position you adopt. It just puts you on an inevitable collision course without apparent attempt to avoid that. So you will just continue banging heads. That isn’t a solution.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/07/2019 13:52

@StillHere2019 - what you have written makes me furious. Furious that you have to write it at all, in 2019. Furious that you and other lesbians are having to face this atrocious behaviour from the very people who should understand the struggles of lesbians, both individually and as a group, and should be supporting you, but are treating you so badly instead.

I wish there was more than just expressing my anger towards these people, and my support for you, that I could do.

NotTerfNorCis · 13/07/2019 13:59

RobinMoira there is only one possible compromise, which is to admit that transwomen are transwomen, in a separate physical and to a large extent social category to women. So for example transwomen shouldn't compete in women's sport, they shouldn't serve time in women's prisons, and they shouldn't hang around lesbian dating sites. That 'cotton ceiling' theory is being pushed at young lesbians is an outrage. Would you be happy with the transwomen are transwomen compromise?

truthisarevolutionaryact · 13/07/2019 14:01

Just wondering RobinMoiraWright whether you are putting the same efforts into asking the trans organisations currently silencing women to be 'kind' and to acknowledge competing rights and to debate them respectfully?

I cannot believe that I have to argue that ROGD should be taken seriously (and am called a TERF for doing so), I can't believe that Lauren Hubbard wins a medal in place of a biological woman and is feted by a sports organisation, I can't believe that rapist Karen White was ever placed in a female prison, I am completely horrified that our children are being targeted in schools by adult organisations and told that breast binding, surgery and drugs are the way to go to address their uncertainties about their sexual identity / development and that all the expertise that we have about dealing with vulnerable children with mental health issues (eating disorders, self harm, being groomed online etc) is dismissed by these organisations who insist on immediate affirmation - even for 4 year olds. And when I see safeguarding guidelines being successfully undermined I know that adults have to speak up for children.

When these issues are raised respectfully the response I see is bullying and intimidation. I don't see it as "if they behave badly, so will I". I have never masked up to picket a meeting, blocked access to anyone entering a meeting, assaulted anyone, phoned up a venue to get them to cancel a meeting or demanded that my rights must be prioritised over others.

I really think you are addressing the wrong group.

LonginesPrime · 13/07/2019 14:02

conflict is an inevitable consequence of protecting rights with potential conflict, such as homosexuality and religion.

With religion, gay people do have the option of walking away from organised religion though. Yes, this might mean losing their social circle. And they might have personal, internal conflicts, but these are a matter for the individual and don't affect anyone else.

When I walked away from religion because of my homosexuality, I lost stuff as well as gaining freedom, but I didn't jeopardise my career or risk a criminal record.

If the conflict is between a person's rights and the laws in the country in which they live (e.g. by treating anyone speaking out against harmful gender oppression being viewed as committing a transphobic hate crime), we're not just talking about leaving one community for another a la religion, we're talking about the choice for women being staying silent on their views and watching their rights be denied or risking criminal sanctions and their careers.

2BthatUnnoticed · 13/07/2019 14:05

Who is shouting? Confused

Last time I checked, TRAs were telling lesbians to choke on “girldick” or be raped by a barbed wire wrapped baseball bat.

While lesbians were... asserting their right to be same sex attracted (omg how dare they!).

Stop telling women to seek a “respectful compromise” with abusive males.

2BthatUnnoticed · 13/07/2019 14:07

(That was in response to Moira upthread)
I stand with my lesbian sisters.

finnrr · 13/07/2019 14:52

I feel very similar out life experiences have been similar too. I'm a lesbian, have been all my life. I've been homeless (essentially kicked out by my father as a teenager), experienced violence, attacks, harassment. You name it. And now I am in fear with nowhere to turn again, 25 years later, because of trans ideology. Lesbians are going underground again, just like the Fifties. And almost everyone has bought into the idology. A couple of years ago I was on the LGBT Network committee for a very large government employer - I told them I disagreed with the new shift towards gender neutral toilets because toilets are an important space for women. I was frozen out and told I was spewing hate.

finnrr · 13/07/2019 14:53

Apologies for typos!

RobinMoiraWhite · 13/07/2019 17:08

And there’s one of your problems. I’m not an ‘abusive male’ but the approach espoused here treats all trans women as if we are.

Would your idea of compromise be for me to use male facilities in public buildings or to accept male forms of address?

BeyondDangerousTshirts · 13/07/2019 17:12

Nobody has said all males are abusive. The point is that no one knows which ones are until it is frequently too late.

AllTheLittleAngelsRiseUp · 13/07/2019 17:29

RobinMoira
The prevalent idea of compromise has been expressed repeatedly:

Society has to compromise as a whole by taking on the time, expense, inconvenience etc of creating safe transgender spaces: Women, Men, Transgender toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.

Women giving over their protected spaces is not a compromise. Placing the burden on women to 'compromise' is not conducive to a satisfactory resolution that can ever be acceptable to the majority.

We are not asking you to compromise on your right to safety or dignity, we are asking transgender people to compromise on the desire to have everyone else concur that you, as a transwoman, are the same as women and must be treated as such.

Transwomen have different needs that need to be considered and catered to separately from women's needs.

RobinMoiraWhite · 13/07/2019 17:40

Transgender toilets? Every institution providing public facilities should be rebuilt?

Should there be lesbian toilets so that straight women are protected from lesbian use of straight toilets and vice versa?

Should there be a DNA test or an appearance test for toilets of choice, or perhaps registration with a government agency?

This is what I mean by practical consideration.

BeyondDangerousTshirts · 13/07/2019 17:45

Lol at a poster actually invoking the lesbophobic crap example of "lesbian toilets" on a thread about actual lesbians.

littlbrowndog · 13/07/2019 17:47

Ooooh Robin is back.

AllTheLittleAngelsRiseUp · 13/07/2019 17:50

RobinMoira

(1) Hyperbole doesn't help! Was every institution providing public facilities rebuilt when legislation formalised provision of disabled toilets? No.

(2) Nor does drawing false equivalencies: There is no fear of lesbian violence against hetero women, and you know that, so as amusing as it might be for you to picture lesbians hassling women and girls in toilets, let's not get distracted!

(3) No DNA test or appearance test necessary: Society works by shared consensus and, by and large, when we all respect and play by the rules, we can cooperate and regulate ourselves. No one is currently guarding the doors to public loos to make sure men don't use women's and vice versa. We all agree that this is not the done thing for reasons of safety, respect, and comfort and we don't do it.

Trans people would simply be asked to behave like any other member of society and respect the norms, conventions, and laws.

Yes, I understand that some trans people prefer to use the spaces designated solely for people of the sex they seek to identify with, but sometimes compromise means setting aside your preferences in order to respect the rights of others and your social / legal responsibilities.

RobinMoiraWhite · 13/07/2019 18:19

You will find that the religious right think that lesbians pose a threat to straight women and girls, so be careful about dismissing that analogy. Banding together to deal with nonsense is important.

Trans people ‘being asked to behave’. Take a moment to think about the effect of that statement.

I couldn’t agree more with your last paragraph. It is, however, your preferences for exclusion of trans individuals that have to put aside under the norms, convention and laws we have.

OvaHere · 13/07/2019 18:36

It is, however, your preferences for exclusion of trans individuals that have to put aside under the norms, convention and laws we have.

And there we have it.

Complete acquiescence to the demands made of us by males.

That is your 'solution'.

FermatsTheorem · 13/07/2019 18:43

There are many, many threads on trans issues at the moment. Some are talking about general feminist theory, some are talking about the legal situation, some (like this one) are focused on the very personal, lived experience of encountering this ideology where it impacts directly on one's personal and sexual life.

Am I the only one finding RobinMoira's choice of this thread, which at heart is about not wanting penis in one's own vagina, to choose as the thread on which to lecture us about being nicer and more accepting? Why not one of the more general, politically oriented or feminist theory oriented threads?

My personal take is that I find the choice of this thread in particular to be yet another example of unwanted and deliberately provocative encroachment into women's spaces.

littlbrowndog · 13/07/2019 18:46

It is fermats. Almost like lesbians shouldn’t have a voice

AllTheLittleAngelsRiseUp · 13/07/2019 19:16

RobinMoira

I am sure that you are a decent sort, wanting to get on with your life, and would rather be able to live-and-let-live than have to deal with ever new attacks on your safety and well-being. That's who I am too.

And I have no doubt that using the toilets of the sex you identify with is better for you, and that you, personally, are no danger to the women using those spaces.

However, as an old-fashioned post-op transsexual (as you described yourself), you are not the 'problem' that people are trying to resolve.

The problem and the danger now is the majority of new-wave transgender people, who haven't had and have no intention of having any kind of op and want to retain all their male sex, but to identify as female and access female spaces on their terms.

These are not people who want to quietly get on with their life in a situation of mutual respect and compromise. Many of them are not even people who really want to 'be' women. They are people who want access to women, to women's spaces, and to women's rights and protections at the expense of women.

And, if you are old-school, you should really know that those people are almost as much a danger to you as to women. So, yes, the old school transsexuals should rise up as one with women to overthrow this new threat! (Ahem, hyperbole!)

For the past few decades, no one has been policing the access of transsexuals to women's spaces because they weren't a danger: By and large, old school transsexuals might quietly use the women's loos or changing cubicles, but they weren't demanding the right to parade round communal changing rooms with their ladydicks proudly swinging for the glory of all. Or demanding that they be sent invites to smear tests, despite the absolute waste of resources, simply because it would offend their self image if they didn't get invited. (Yes, I'm using this example to make a point - I don't want to open a debate about this.)

I've seen lots of posts (here & elsewhere) from transsexual people stating how they've been using their identified sex facilities for years without problems. And I believe I've had experience of sharing facilities with old school transsexuals in the past. (I believe - I wouldn't be so rude as to ask, since they weren't harming me.)

But the old school transsexuals weren't the ones making me feel unsafe because of their behaviour, demeanour, attitude. Old school transsexuals weren't the ones demanding lesbians accept their ladydicks just because they felt entitled to sex with lesbians. I'm sure, as a reasonable old school sort of person, you will agree that they concept expressed in the term 'cotton ceiling' is repugnant and that lesbians and all women need protecting from that sort of thing. The aggression and violence of the current dominant transgender ideology is the problem we need to resolve, and there can be no compromise with aggression or violence.

To address your points:

(1) While the extreme religious right might fear that rampant lesbians might 'convert' their womenfolk, there isn't a viable fear that lesbians will sexually assault or rape other women (not least because, no dicks). Plus, I don't believe you genuinely want to build an argument for compromise based on the thinking of the religious far right, when that simply distracts from the issue at hand. So, yes, I'm dismissing the 'lesbians are a threat to women and girls so need their own loos' argument.

(2) Yep, thought about the effect of the whole statement, trans people 'being asked to behave like any other member of society'. Society is constructed on compromise, mutually agreed compromise that is to the benefit of the greatest majority. We all have to behave ourselves, and I mean that in the 'behave and play nicely together' sense, rather than the 'behave, repress yourself to your psychological detriment' sense, as I'm sure you appreciate.

(3) I had to read your last point a couple of times since the syntax wasn't clear to me, so if I have misunderstood, I'll apologise. But what I'm reading is that you are conflating my rights with my preferences. The exclusion of trans individuals from women-only spaces isn't a preference, it is a legal protection. (While the use of women-only space by trans people is not a right, it is a preference.)

As a woman, under law, I have a right to single-sex spaces, which are necessary for my safety and well-being. The extant norms, conventions, and laws - debated, developed, modified, agreed and accepted - do not provide those same rights to trans people. So I am under no obligation, legal or moral, to put aside my rights in order to accommodate the desires of trans people. And one of the things people are cross about in this whole matter are that the laws are being changed radically without debate -- in fact debate is being stamped out, if you follow the #nodebate controversy. The whole concept of what it is to be a woman is being legally - ridiculously - redefined, without consultation or agreement. And without reference to the actual biological facts!

Perhaps the first 'compromise' needs to be that trans people accept that women get to define what women are, and that explicitly means no dicks.

I'm off to dinner now, so if anyone wants to reply, I'll try to follow up tomorrow.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 13/07/2019 19:32

Am I the only one finding RobinMoira's choice of this thread, which at heart is about not wanting penis in one's own vagina, to choose as the thread on which to lecture us about being nicer and more accepting?

It is an odd choice of thread, I agree.

But it does go somewhere to prove what was talked about in the opening post. A sort of real time example.

LangCleg · 13/07/2019 19:45

The OP has written powerfully and articulately about the war of attrition waged over recent years by born males on lesbian boundaries.

Those who are oblivious to what would therefore be appropriate and respectful responses to this heartfelt post are a million miles from any possible solution.

Perhaps some reflection on this would be in order?

Joskin69 · 13/07/2019 22:52

Dear OP I am so so sorry you are feeling this. You post really resonated with me. I have found great solidarity in some secret FB GC feminist groups and without them I think I may have combusted.
What area of the UK are you in and maybe I could link you in if you like?
Love and solidarity sister x