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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being a homosexual female in a community of queer people, transbians and penis-inclusionary lesbians

211 replies

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 01:06

Firstly, sorry, that this is a much longer post than I anticipated. I originally wanted to write a post mainly aimed at other lesbians who are struggling with everything that’s going on at the moment with the queer movement but it was difficult to find anywhere to put it that was anonymous, not a ‘queer’ space and not a specifically radfem space and it morphed into a rather longer post and a bit different than I intended once I started writing it down.

To be clear, when I’m talking about lesbians I mean female homosexuals – biological women who are only attracted to other biological women. The meaning of the term has been changed a lot. At first, it was just males who identify as women and sometimes their female wives/partners who were calling themselves lesbians - The term lesbian was pretty unpopular generally until very recently, with queer being the more acceptable alternative for women. However, over the past year or so, the word lesbian has started being used a lot and its meaning expanded much further. For example, it is used as an umbrella term for all lesbian, bi, queer, pangender, feminine-identified people and also just as an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (so you can get couples who are both opposite sex and opposite gender e.g. a transman and a transwoman who identify as lesbians, people who don’t identify as being women identifying as lesbians, he/him lesbians etc).

I’m someone who came out as a lesbian a long time ago. Although I’m out to most people in my life, I don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me. I think there’s some stuff that straight people would understand (like that I lost my job because of my sexuality and had no legal recourse because it wasn’t illegal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation) and some that I think is difficult to understand if you haven’t experienced it or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.)

When I was able to move away to a city, I finally met other LGB people - and, while the community was male dominated and often misogynistic, I was with other people who had had similar experiences to me, felt a sense of belonging and we worked to build the community, support others coming out and fight for our rights.

Over time things seemed to be getting better, for me personally in finding my community, but attitudes and laws had changed too. It wasn’t perfect, of course – I’d be cautious about who I was out to, or if I held my girlfriend’s hand in public but that was okay. I’d compare it to the way women have to be cautious and security conscious in ways that don’t even occur to men. Yes, it shouldn’t happen but it becomes so much second nature that it’s normal and you don’t really think about it. I could accept the past and everything that had happened to me because things were improving and we had fought for that change so that younger lesbians wouldn’t have to experience what we had gone through.

Seeing what is happening now, especially for younger (female homosexual) lesbians, I have found it difficult to accept that my past and what I had experienced was actually probably as good as it got for lesbians. I saw similar things, similar perceptions about lesbians, that I’d heard back in the bad old days returning disguised in woke language – and coming out of the mouths of self-identified progressive, queer people who claimed to be part of my community. I saw everything going backwards for lesbians, while from the outside it looked like everything was still there – that we had our rights, our community, our organisations, our venues, our Pride celebrations, which were actually now filled with queer-identified people embracing their chosen identities and kinks, and waving their rainbow flags around, while the gay men largely carried as normal, unaffected, or even enjoying the opportunity to put the boot into lesbians.

When I was growing up, it was being same-sex attracted and having relationships with women that was considered immoral and that attitude came from outside the LGB community but now it is not being attracted to males and not being open to relationships with men that is considered wrong. So there are plenty of people who are involved in the queer movement who embrace the notion of same-sex activity between women (from women who are actually bisexual to those who will put on a bit of a show for the men as part of a queer, kinky lifestyle to others who adopt the language but only actually get involved with biological males) as long as you are also open to sex with males.

It started more subtly maybe about 12 -15 years ago with the message that sexuality was fluid and the slogan ‘hearts not parts’ repeatedly appearing in articles on lesbian sites (now rebranded as queer women’s sites) – and they did make it sound to me like it was a better, purer, more progressive way to be - to be open-minded and willing to love the right person for their heart, regardless of their sex. It didn’t occur to me at the time that I was only ever seeing this slogan on lesbian sites – that out of the four groups of people only attracted to one sex, it was only lesbians who were being bombarded with the idea that we could change our sexual orientation and become nicer, better people by being open to sex with men. After a while of seeing this message from ‘my community’, I decided that I should at least be open-minded about the possibility of a relationship with a man so, for a period, I went around being open to feeling attraction to men… to no effect. I didn’t meet any men I felt attracted to so in practice the open-minded thing didn’t make any difference to me. (Back then it was only about considering men as possible sexual partners and someone you could potentially be attracted to, not encouraging you to overcome your feelings and ‘try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it’ or advising you that ‘if you repeatedly have sex with someone with a penis you could learn to cope with it’.)

It is only more recently that this message about a positive, superior, open-minded sexuality has also been combined with openly negative comments about perverted, weird ‘genital fetishists’ (a lot of which echoes views about lesbians from when I was younger, that I thought we’d moved past) – and I also started seeing this happening in real life, not just online – although I may have been slow to see it and younger women in university and youth clubs probably experienced it a lot sooner. The message was that sexuality was fluid, everyone had the potential to be attracted to both/all sexes/genders and not being attracted to males was a kind of prejudice (both anti-trans and anti-male) or a personality flaw that we could and should overcome. It is (for now) only not being open to transwomen’s ‘girld*cks’ that makes you a TERF and that will get you actually excluded and possibly attacked but not being open to sex with males who still identify as men can also attract criticism and get you rounded on by queer people.

Around this time, I became involved in gender critical feminism and then later came into contact with radical feminists and lesbian feminists and again the belief that being a lesbian was a choice (albeit a positive one) and that lesbians had been taken in by a politically-expedient narrative that sexual orientation was fixed.

A few years ago, I couldn’t have imagined myself questioning my sexuality like I have been doing - these kind of issues were mainly experienced by people who were just coming out, and I used to be someone who supported women in that situation. But there were so many messages from different sources – including sources that I had thought of previously as ‘on my side’ - that sexuality was fluid, that everyone had the potential to experience attraction to both sexes and being a lesbian was a choice I had made. I can’t really explain how I ended up thinking the things I did because it didn’t tally with my experience and the experiences of other lesbians I knew but so much of what I thought I knew and where I had felt safe and accepted for years had been turned upside down – my sense of belonging in the LGBT community, that we had a shared ‘cause’, my faith in organisations I’d trusted, my belief in and belonging to the left - that I just didn’t know what to think anymore ….and I was questioning everything I believed or thought I knew or trusted in.

I knew I hadn’t made a conscious, deliberate choice to be a lesbian but if it wasn’t something that was just natural for me – and if everyone had the potential for opposite sex attraction - the only way I could make sense of it was that I’d made a mistake when I was a kid – that I’d mistaken feelings of friendship or admiration for girls for something else and accidentally sent myself down this path by labelling myself as (or fearing myself to be) a lesbian and accidentally shutting off the feelings I could otherwise have developed for the opposite sex. This really played on my mind and I felt so angry at myself at the thought that I’d done this all to myself – all the shit that had happened when I was younger and everything that was happening now - that I started hurting myself, which was the start of a downward spiral. After feeling okay and even fairly optimistic about things a few years ago, I hated being a lesbian and all the crap that went with it and really struggled with the idea that I could have had a different life and none of this needed to have happened.

Radical and lesbian feminism provided an alternative to the negative views about lesbians from the queer community, with the message that being a lesbian was a wonderful, happy choice that improved your life but this was just so alien to my experience, and especially where I was at that time. Even the supposed positives didn’t ring true to my life - like that it provided a woman-centred life, when being a lesbian had led me to be separated from and sometimes shunned by other women who felt uncomfortable around lesbians.

I wanted – and knew I needed – to get help to deal with all of this but the LGBT organisations which offered the support, counselling and mental health services for sexuality issues were no longer somewhere I felt I would be safe, let alone supported.

Since then, I’ve found some support elsewhere and am working through this but I’m also trying to work out where I go from here and where I belong.

My response to everything that was going on had been to run away from all the crap in the LGBTQ community and replace it in my life with gender critical feminist groups. I’ve met some brilliant, inspiring, lovely women through the trans issue and I feel I have to stay involved because it’s too important and now is too critical a time not to.

But I also think I need to find a way to stay engaged with what is left of the lesbian community, with people I have shared experience with and a shared culture and history. I know I am a lot more fortunate than many younger lesbians whose lives and friendship groups are much more embroiled in the trans and queer ideology.

Where previously very few of us dared to speak about this issue, over the past year or so, I’ve had a number of lesbians talk to me privately about the trans issue or abuse they’ve received in the queer community for not being attracted to males, or tell me that they’ve signed a petition I shared online, and sometimes the trans topic has been cautiously brought up in public when everyone senses they are in safe company. Not all lesbians are as involved in this issue as I am but, while I know – and avoid – a couple of women who are full-on transactivist allies, everyone else has either shared my concerns or, if they don’t agree, they haven’t said anything or de-friended me.

This has been in sharp contrast to the way things are going in the LGBTQ community generally where the threats and policing of lesbians have got more explicit. Anti-TERF rhetoric from organisations, businesses and individuals has escalated massively with anti-TERF posters and speakers at LGBTQ events whipping crowds up against ‘TERFs’, calling for, at best, exclusion, but also for violence. Organisations and events are also increasingly introducing ‘safe spaces agreements’ - which you have to agree to go to an event or access a service – and which are all about pronouns and trans and queer identities and reporting any other service user or attendee who you view as ‘problematic’. They realise that lesbians are starting to discuss concerns and object as the demands and behaviour of the trans/queer group get more extreme so they need to make us feel too scared to share our experiences and discuss these issues openly.

There are layers to the LGBTQ community. At the centre are the LGBTQ organisations and groups and the ‘gay scene’ (mainly bars and clubs) which have been completely colonised (with collaboration from misogynistic gay men) and then there are more peripheral, less formal groups and then groups of lesbian/bi friends socialising away from the scene. It’s a bit of an oversimplification as life is always messier than that but generally, unless you’re in the younger age group, the further away from the centre you are, the better things are so that’s where I’ll be – away from the organisations, groups and bars that I used to consider my community and finding my community with other lesbians in non-queer spaces.

I know this doesn’t provide a solution for younger lesbians and I’ve no idea how long this will provide a solution for me. I could never had imagined a few years ago that we’d be in this position now – Hell, even a year ago, despite being gender critical, I couldn’t have imagined how much the situation would have escalated in such a short space of time. So I’ve no idea where we’ll be or what options there will be for lesbians in a few years’ time but I’m just trying to find ways to manage for now.

OP posts:
Muststopfaffing · 25/06/2019 20:06

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3621355-Lesbian-Allies?watched=1&msgid=88088383#88088383

I’ve started a new thread, galvanised into action by your post OP. The offer of support is sincerely meant and as evidenced by posts on this thread, echoed by many women here.

BeUpStanding · 25/06/2019 20:27

Have only read the OP so far, and had to comment immediately to thank you for such a powerful and personal post Flowers

Will now rtft

Angryresister · 25/06/2019 21:23

It is really good to see such solidarity from other lesbians and straight women....I have always experienced more of this from women . Personally I find lesbians who are focussing on males however they identify , extremely strange, and I will do everything possible to persuade them that they do not have to do this. In the past it is mainly men who have split groups of feminists lesbians and women and I will not forgive them for the harm they do. I have one or two male gay friends ,whom I mostly trust but they have to work hard and we all recognise our interests are different. Luckily I have no job to lose and now I don't give a shit about hurting men's feelings over this, and I will continue to talk with women and lesbians .

Doobigetta · 25/06/2019 21:24

Please know how important it is to me and all the straight feminists I know to stand by you. As groups of women, we are not whole without you XX

SisterWendyBuckett · 25/06/2019 21:29

Thank you for your eloquent, powerful and moving post Stillhere

As the estranged mum of a young lesbian who suddenly and radically got swallowed up
by the trans movement, your words are enlightening.

My daughter (physically transitioning 'gay man' with vagina) refused to discuss anything with me once she was transed, so this thread really helps me see and understand what's been happening.

I attended a WPUK meeting several months ago where Julia Long spoke from the floor about what's happening to young lesbians. Her passion and frustration and concern was palpable. It made me realise that while it's bad for all women, lesbians who don't centre men are truly feared and hated, and so targeted in the most punitive way.

I don't think it's exaggeration to say that some want their extinction. And that our young lesbian daughters and sisters are being gaslighted into doing this themselves.

So thank you OP, for telling us the truth and for reaching out. We hear you.

Like everyone else, I'm sending you love and solidarity Thanks

EmpressLesbianInChair · 25/06/2019 21:48

Just repeating my request for women to physically stand with us in London on Friday 5 July if you can. This is a real tangible, important thing you can do to help if you’re free.

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 22:59

Thanks everyone for your messages of support. It means a lot to know that other people see what is going on and care about it – especially at this time of year with all the coverage of Pride events celebrating a wonderful, progressive community and improving situation for LGBT people which bears no resemblance to the reality of what is going on for some of us.

OP posts:
TriptychDebbie · 26/06/2019 07:54

Thank you so much for your post OP. As a straight woman, I am very grateful to all of the lesbians who have opened my eyes to what is happening. I follow a lot of lesbians on Twitter and am seeing an increasing amount of support from men now, gay and straight, which wasn't happening a year ago.

A gay male friend approached me recently and asked why there were women on his dating app, because apparently I 'know about that kind of crap'

People are slowly waking up and are starting to realise what's happening. What the rest of the gay community needs to understand, is that it won't just stop with lesbians. When they realise that nothing short of total capitulation will appease the queer agenda they might go some way to understanding what lesbians and feminists have been saying for years.

Many of us here and in the wider world have your back. We'll support you in any way that we can. This issue affects all of us and it's crucial for us to stand up and be counted.

We can't just dismiss it as a fringe problem and hope it'll all blow over because it won't. Time to pick a side folks.

Lamaha · 26/06/2019 09:45

Such a moving and heartbreaking account. I wish it would be more public -- I bet it would stir something in other lesbians.

Men have always tried to find ways to get into women's knickers. The 60's were like birthday and Christmas all rolled into one, because women began to drop their expectations of "behave well and then maybe", because we had reliable birth control in our hands.

I was always sceptical of the sex-positive movement, and the sex-in-the-city inspired idea that women could have sex just like men. Again, this was exactly what men wanted and it did us no good in the end.
Now they're going after lesbians in a big way. It's serious, yet I think it's a step too far, because in the end you will fight back, and win. I'm sure of this. Trans ideology is so utterly crazy, it cannot win.

AngryAngel · 26/06/2019 10:53

Superb post, Stillhere. I have lots in my head about this. I can see how everything in your post is happening, and happening with increasing velocity. Although most of the lesbians I know/knew are off grid when it comes to LGBT+ and pride etc., even if they were ever bothered, they just cannot relate to what it has become. I'm terrified about the younger lesbians and bisexual women seeking allies and support right now. It must be desperately confusing. And off-putting, even reaching out in the first place. Anyway, just letting you know that this bisexual AngryAngel supports you.

Luckystar777 · 26/06/2019 11:40

I'm glad you have spoken up. I am back in the closet because of them, I cannot go to any LGBT groups, I do not feel safe or comfortable. Even typing here worries me because I saw a male talking about this site and he had said that some lesbian protestors were 'cute'. So the awareness we are even being watched like this is deeply unsettling for me. I won't even go to protest any of this because i see them on twitter, posing with guns, knives, baseball bats.

Why can people not see what is happening to us?

I'd cry but i am filled with rage about it.

They will never 'convert' me. I tried to be 'straight' until age 17, had a few boyfriends and never lasted, i couldn't go further than kissing with them and even that was disgusting to me. I can't and won't do it. EVER. If it means I have to be single all my life then FINE.

I had a great relationship for 13 years until my mid 30s with a wonderful woman, really. But things changed and we started to have different dreams in life. So we had to separate.

I feel sick at these homophobic males trying to force us to be with them, really sick.

I contacted Galop to ask for help, and to ask if there's any female only groups, they said no, the groups are ALL inclusive of trans women. This is an organisation supposed to help people, we are victims of homophobia and they do not give a damn about us. I DARE them to turn around in a few years and say ''sorry'' - they will never be sorry, they are as bad as the gaslighting abusive males doing this to us. We have been utterly betrayed.

So force me back in the closet, fine.

Oh, and I also am afraid to use toilets now too, never use changing rooms anymore. If there comes a day where i am not allowed to use a disable toilet then i will become entirely housebound. I hope they're happy with themselves.

Michelleoftheresistance · 26/06/2019 13:18

Sadly Lucky they will look you in the eye and tell you they don't give a shit.

Which tells you everything you need to know about the kind of people you are dealing with. 'Intersectional', 'love', 'inclusive', 'respect' - those are things they believe women owe unconditionally to them or else. At no time is it ever reciprocal. And they're completely oblivious to how much this exposes what this is truly about and what they truly stand for. There's a lot of pathology in all this. We need the entire British government to do the freedom programme.

RochelleGoyle · 26/06/2019 14:04

Brilliant, coherent and powerful post OP. Thank you.

Luckystar777 · 26/06/2019 14:08

I know, they have completely betrayed all of us.

I never ever thought we would ever go backwards, but it is exactly what's happening. I've told counsellors, one, a sexual abuse counsellor, and they do agree but I think even they are scared to say too much. Another one made it clear from facial expressions and body language that she was annoyed about it. My family are annoyed about it, my dad is outraged, so are other males in my family.

I totally agree, the freedom programme is brilliant.

2BthatUnnoticed · 26/06/2019 14:27

Solidarity Lucky it sounds so hard. I know all the baseball bat imagery and “punch terfs!” rhetoric can seem intimidating. It’s designed to.

You know you are anonymous here, no one can find you or hurt you. And all of us defend your right to be a lesbian (how bizarre that it needs to be said - but here we are). Flowers

stumbledin · 26/06/2019 14:56

Just wanted to let you know that I read your post shortly after you first posted it and was very moved, but also angry and sad.

It is just brilliand that you are still here(!) even though you have been undermined and betrayed by the very community you thought was going to be your safe space.

My knowing I was lesbian was informed by my feminism, so in fact I found the then LGB community quite alienating. Not just because it seemed male dominated (and sexist) but also because for some, not all lesbians, they accept gender stereotype roles ie butch and femme.

So I sort of get guilty not being more supportive of or involved in the LGB community and certainly when queer politics took over I just stopped paying attention.

But this doesn't mean I dont recognise how important it is to have some support network or group for lesbians (and gay men) where they can openly be who they are.

It is terrible that you (and so many other lesbians) have been betrayed. And I just dont understand how younger women who accept being lesbian (even if they give it some woke name) can be so disrespectful and hateful towards other women.

So this is where I will have to admit that in some ways this is part of a failure of feminism - although queer politics was also part of and used by the male backlash against women's liberation.

It is totally unacceptable in 21st figure that lesbian/ism has somehwo become a legitimised focus of hate.

But you aren't alone, even if on a day to day basis you feel you are. There are more and more lesbian groups forming to push back against this hatred.

Just hope it wont be long where it will be possible to socialise with other lesbians and not feel you are part of some hidden underground.

Luckystar777 · 26/06/2019 15:13

Thanks 2bthatunnoticed, I really appreciate it, they are so frightening just to look at online, let alone the real world.

Thanks too of course Stillhere2019 for starting this thread and to all of you supporting us and speaking out. I don't like to imagine where we would be without the internet, without this amazing website. So thank you too to the creator and admins here, huge appreciation to you, all of you.

raisinsraisinsraisins · 26/06/2019 15:41

Such a powerful post. A young relative of mine is a transman, and says they are a gay man as they have a boyfriend who is a transman like they are. I find it so upsetting that today’s society has made this a better option than being a lesbian.

lululatetotheparty · 26/06/2019 17:26

Solidarity here from this straight woman too, thank you for your post.

Mxyzptlk · 27/06/2019 18:11

Do we (straight people / women) need to make our spaces more lesbian friendly
How could we do that, when all our spaces are being colonised by people who identify as women?

Mrskeats · 27/06/2019 18:22

Brilliant post op. My step daughter is 16 and insists she is a gay man inside a woman's body. I don't understand at all. Who first decided that the T should take over the LGB movement and cause all this havoc? Lesbians seem to be bearing the brunt of it. Apparently they should 'tolerate' penises.

StoatofDisarray · 27/06/2019 19:06

That was a fantastic post and I'm sorry I don't have any advice, or really anything to say. I'm a bisexual woman, not a lesbian, BTW.

I send you a warm hug through the ether!

Michelleoftheresistance · 27/06/2019 19:56

Do we (straight people / women) need to make our spaces more lesbian friendly?

How could we do that, when all our spaces are being colonised by people who identify as women?

Any publicly open group labelled either 'woman' or 'lesbian' gets strategically targeted. There was an FWR poster a couple of years back who belonged to a Facebook support group for women who were ill with a disease that can only happen to biologically female bodies. Many of the women were very ill. It was targeted by a couple of people with transgender identities, who destroyed the group by dominating everything with posting about how transphobic and exclusionary the group was to suggest woman had anything to do with biology, and the group eventually had to close and shift to a hidden, private group to escape them. Women searching for support with this illness will now not be able to find the group or it's help.

The TRAs don't care, at all. Other people don't matter.

MyWifeNKidz · 27/06/2019 20:04

I’m a straight woman and I found your OP so moving and honest and - although I’m not a lesbian - I hear you, sister!

My best friend in the world is a lesbian in her forties who came out at college when we were both 16. She was a huge supporter of the LGB movement (as it was then), an active campaigner, showed complete solidarity with her gay male friends.

But it seems as if she has been sold down the river by that very movement. Hurtful attitudes from supposed friends abd allies in he LGBTQI (insert another letter...) ‘connunity’. She isn’t allowed to be who she is - a LESBIAN - because, let’s face it, the men don’t like it.

It fucking infuriates me. I want to know how to help. My friend has distanced herself from anything but her inner circle of lesbian friends, and I don’t blame her, but this is an outrageous pushing back of hard won rights and I don’t want to stand by and say nothing.

MyWifeNKidz · 27/06/2019 20:05

Excuse typos

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