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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being a homosexual female in a community of queer people, transbians and penis-inclusionary lesbians

211 replies

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 01:06

Firstly, sorry, that this is a much longer post than I anticipated. I originally wanted to write a post mainly aimed at other lesbians who are struggling with everything that’s going on at the moment with the queer movement but it was difficult to find anywhere to put it that was anonymous, not a ‘queer’ space and not a specifically radfem space and it morphed into a rather longer post and a bit different than I intended once I started writing it down.

To be clear, when I’m talking about lesbians I mean female homosexuals – biological women who are only attracted to other biological women. The meaning of the term has been changed a lot. At first, it was just males who identify as women and sometimes their female wives/partners who were calling themselves lesbians - The term lesbian was pretty unpopular generally until very recently, with queer being the more acceptable alternative for women. However, over the past year or so, the word lesbian has started being used a lot and its meaning expanded much further. For example, it is used as an umbrella term for all lesbian, bi, queer, pangender, feminine-identified people and also just as an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (so you can get couples who are both opposite sex and opposite gender e.g. a transman and a transwoman who identify as lesbians, people who don’t identify as being women identifying as lesbians, he/him lesbians etc).

I’m someone who came out as a lesbian a long time ago. Although I’m out to most people in my life, I don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me. I think there’s some stuff that straight people would understand (like that I lost my job because of my sexuality and had no legal recourse because it wasn’t illegal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation) and some that I think is difficult to understand if you haven’t experienced it or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.)

When I was able to move away to a city, I finally met other LGB people - and, while the community was male dominated and often misogynistic, I was with other people who had had similar experiences to me, felt a sense of belonging and we worked to build the community, support others coming out and fight for our rights.

Over time things seemed to be getting better, for me personally in finding my community, but attitudes and laws had changed too. It wasn’t perfect, of course – I’d be cautious about who I was out to, or if I held my girlfriend’s hand in public but that was okay. I’d compare it to the way women have to be cautious and security conscious in ways that don’t even occur to men. Yes, it shouldn’t happen but it becomes so much second nature that it’s normal and you don’t really think about it. I could accept the past and everything that had happened to me because things were improving and we had fought for that change so that younger lesbians wouldn’t have to experience what we had gone through.

Seeing what is happening now, especially for younger (female homosexual) lesbians, I have found it difficult to accept that my past and what I had experienced was actually probably as good as it got for lesbians. I saw similar things, similar perceptions about lesbians, that I’d heard back in the bad old days returning disguised in woke language – and coming out of the mouths of self-identified progressive, queer people who claimed to be part of my community. I saw everything going backwards for lesbians, while from the outside it looked like everything was still there – that we had our rights, our community, our organisations, our venues, our Pride celebrations, which were actually now filled with queer-identified people embracing their chosen identities and kinks, and waving their rainbow flags around, while the gay men largely carried as normal, unaffected, or even enjoying the opportunity to put the boot into lesbians.

When I was growing up, it was being same-sex attracted and having relationships with women that was considered immoral and that attitude came from outside the LGB community but now it is not being attracted to males and not being open to relationships with men that is considered wrong. So there are plenty of people who are involved in the queer movement who embrace the notion of same-sex activity between women (from women who are actually bisexual to those who will put on a bit of a show for the men as part of a queer, kinky lifestyle to others who adopt the language but only actually get involved with biological males) as long as you are also open to sex with males.

It started more subtly maybe about 12 -15 years ago with the message that sexuality was fluid and the slogan ‘hearts not parts’ repeatedly appearing in articles on lesbian sites (now rebranded as queer women’s sites) – and they did make it sound to me like it was a better, purer, more progressive way to be - to be open-minded and willing to love the right person for their heart, regardless of their sex. It didn’t occur to me at the time that I was only ever seeing this slogan on lesbian sites – that out of the four groups of people only attracted to one sex, it was only lesbians who were being bombarded with the idea that we could change our sexual orientation and become nicer, better people by being open to sex with men. After a while of seeing this message from ‘my community’, I decided that I should at least be open-minded about the possibility of a relationship with a man so, for a period, I went around being open to feeling attraction to men… to no effect. I didn’t meet any men I felt attracted to so in practice the open-minded thing didn’t make any difference to me. (Back then it was only about considering men as possible sexual partners and someone you could potentially be attracted to, not encouraging you to overcome your feelings and ‘try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it’ or advising you that ‘if you repeatedly have sex with someone with a penis you could learn to cope with it’.)

It is only more recently that this message about a positive, superior, open-minded sexuality has also been combined with openly negative comments about perverted, weird ‘genital fetishists’ (a lot of which echoes views about lesbians from when I was younger, that I thought we’d moved past) – and I also started seeing this happening in real life, not just online – although I may have been slow to see it and younger women in university and youth clubs probably experienced it a lot sooner. The message was that sexuality was fluid, everyone had the potential to be attracted to both/all sexes/genders and not being attracted to males was a kind of prejudice (both anti-trans and anti-male) or a personality flaw that we could and should overcome. It is (for now) only not being open to transwomen’s ‘girld*cks’ that makes you a TERF and that will get you actually excluded and possibly attacked but not being open to sex with males who still identify as men can also attract criticism and get you rounded on by queer people.

Around this time, I became involved in gender critical feminism and then later came into contact with radical feminists and lesbian feminists and again the belief that being a lesbian was a choice (albeit a positive one) and that lesbians had been taken in by a politically-expedient narrative that sexual orientation was fixed.

A few years ago, I couldn’t have imagined myself questioning my sexuality like I have been doing - these kind of issues were mainly experienced by people who were just coming out, and I used to be someone who supported women in that situation. But there were so many messages from different sources – including sources that I had thought of previously as ‘on my side’ - that sexuality was fluid, that everyone had the potential to experience attraction to both sexes and being a lesbian was a choice I had made. I can’t really explain how I ended up thinking the things I did because it didn’t tally with my experience and the experiences of other lesbians I knew but so much of what I thought I knew and where I had felt safe and accepted for years had been turned upside down – my sense of belonging in the LGBT community, that we had a shared ‘cause’, my faith in organisations I’d trusted, my belief in and belonging to the left - that I just didn’t know what to think anymore ….and I was questioning everything I believed or thought I knew or trusted in.

I knew I hadn’t made a conscious, deliberate choice to be a lesbian but if it wasn’t something that was just natural for me – and if everyone had the potential for opposite sex attraction - the only way I could make sense of it was that I’d made a mistake when I was a kid – that I’d mistaken feelings of friendship or admiration for girls for something else and accidentally sent myself down this path by labelling myself as (or fearing myself to be) a lesbian and accidentally shutting off the feelings I could otherwise have developed for the opposite sex. This really played on my mind and I felt so angry at myself at the thought that I’d done this all to myself – all the shit that had happened when I was younger and everything that was happening now - that I started hurting myself, which was the start of a downward spiral. After feeling okay and even fairly optimistic about things a few years ago, I hated being a lesbian and all the crap that went with it and really struggled with the idea that I could have had a different life and none of this needed to have happened.

Radical and lesbian feminism provided an alternative to the negative views about lesbians from the queer community, with the message that being a lesbian was a wonderful, happy choice that improved your life but this was just so alien to my experience, and especially where I was at that time. Even the supposed positives didn’t ring true to my life - like that it provided a woman-centred life, when being a lesbian had led me to be separated from and sometimes shunned by other women who felt uncomfortable around lesbians.

I wanted – and knew I needed – to get help to deal with all of this but the LGBT organisations which offered the support, counselling and mental health services for sexuality issues were no longer somewhere I felt I would be safe, let alone supported.

Since then, I’ve found some support elsewhere and am working through this but I’m also trying to work out where I go from here and where I belong.

My response to everything that was going on had been to run away from all the crap in the LGBTQ community and replace it in my life with gender critical feminist groups. I’ve met some brilliant, inspiring, lovely women through the trans issue and I feel I have to stay involved because it’s too important and now is too critical a time not to.

But I also think I need to find a way to stay engaged with what is left of the lesbian community, with people I have shared experience with and a shared culture and history. I know I am a lot more fortunate than many younger lesbians whose lives and friendship groups are much more embroiled in the trans and queer ideology.

Where previously very few of us dared to speak about this issue, over the past year or so, I’ve had a number of lesbians talk to me privately about the trans issue or abuse they’ve received in the queer community for not being attracted to males, or tell me that they’ve signed a petition I shared online, and sometimes the trans topic has been cautiously brought up in public when everyone senses they are in safe company. Not all lesbians are as involved in this issue as I am but, while I know – and avoid – a couple of women who are full-on transactivist allies, everyone else has either shared my concerns or, if they don’t agree, they haven’t said anything or de-friended me.

This has been in sharp contrast to the way things are going in the LGBTQ community generally where the threats and policing of lesbians have got more explicit. Anti-TERF rhetoric from organisations, businesses and individuals has escalated massively with anti-TERF posters and speakers at LGBTQ events whipping crowds up against ‘TERFs’, calling for, at best, exclusion, but also for violence. Organisations and events are also increasingly introducing ‘safe spaces agreements’ - which you have to agree to go to an event or access a service – and which are all about pronouns and trans and queer identities and reporting any other service user or attendee who you view as ‘problematic’. They realise that lesbians are starting to discuss concerns and object as the demands and behaviour of the trans/queer group get more extreme so they need to make us feel too scared to share our experiences and discuss these issues openly.

There are layers to the LGBTQ community. At the centre are the LGBTQ organisations and groups and the ‘gay scene’ (mainly bars and clubs) which have been completely colonised (with collaboration from misogynistic gay men) and then there are more peripheral, less formal groups and then groups of lesbian/bi friends socialising away from the scene. It’s a bit of an oversimplification as life is always messier than that but generally, unless you’re in the younger age group, the further away from the centre you are, the better things are so that’s where I’ll be – away from the organisations, groups and bars that I used to consider my community and finding my community with other lesbians in non-queer spaces.

I know this doesn’t provide a solution for younger lesbians and I’ve no idea how long this will provide a solution for me. I could never had imagined a few years ago that we’d be in this position now – Hell, even a year ago, despite being gender critical, I couldn’t have imagined how much the situation would have escalated in such a short space of time. So I’ve no idea where we’ll be or what options there will be for lesbians in a few years’ time but I’m just trying to find ways to manage for now.

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/07/2019 23:05

@AllTheLittleAngelsRiseUp - your post is an eloquent and balanced view of this issue, and I agree with everything you said. It is exactly what I want to say, on this issue.

Thank you.

2BthatUnnoticed · 14/07/2019 00:04

Robin are you all over the internet telling women to “choke on girldick”? No (I assume). So the reference to “abusive males” did not include you. HTH.

OP and other posters have shared that they no longer go into supposed LGBT spaces, as they feel hostile to many lesbians. But you choose to remark upon the 10 or so lesbians who protested at Pride and find their behaviour lacking? Confused

Solidarity to OP and others who have posted. In case people haven’t come across it yet, there is now a support thread called “supporting our lesbian sisters,” where lesbians can tell straight women what we can do to support.

Italiangreyhound · 14/07/2019 00:33

Hi OP I am a straight woman and you have my solidarity.

I wonder what is happening in other countries. Are there any communities around the world where genuine lesbian women only spaces exist?

Thinking of you.

StillHere2019 · 15/07/2019 09:27

Thanks @Joskin69 - I am in touch with some local gc women. Thanks to everyone who has posted supportive messages.

OP posts:
Aquiver · 15/07/2019 11:17

Excellent and brutally honest post @StillHere2019 - standing in solidarity with you Thanks

NataleeY · 15/07/2019 19:12

It's plain stupid.... Homosexual women are the most persecuted and yet most vilified now.

Italiangreyhound · 16/07/2019 12:38

StillHere2019 is it possible to form support groups around biological function? E.g. menopause support groups.

StillHere2019 · 18/07/2019 22:20

@Italiangreyhound I did a quick google search and found a menopause support event for lesbian and bisexual women...which specifically includes transwomen. Confused

lgbt.foundation/events/menopause-workshop-for-older-lesbian-and-bi-women/5765

I wonder how many of the latter turned up?

OP posts:
justasking111 · 18/07/2019 23:08

I was just reading about L Fest this weekend, I hope it will all go off peacefully and people have a good time, this is a family event. The people there need to be left alone. What also worries me is that there are plans for a gay parade in the town next summer, will that be hijacked.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 18/07/2019 23:13

"identify as lesbian or bisexual, all or part of the time, including trans women, women of colour, older women, disabled/neurodivergent women, women of all faiths and backgrounds, non-binary/gender fluid people and transfeminine people. We try to make our services welcoming and accessible to all"
How can you identify as lesbian or disabled or women of colour?
You just are. So that whole thing has been write to include trans women.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 18/07/2019 23:23

These groups saying that being lesbian is an identity. It's ridiculous. And very much like men telling lesbians they just haven't tried the right d**k.
Goth, emo, punks, these are identities, your sexual orientation is not.
And why has it come to saying identity with anyway? When I was a goth I would have said I'm a goth not that I identify with one...

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo · 18/07/2019 23:30

Sorry I'm not being clear, when I said I was a goth and I didn't identify as being at goth it was because that's how I just was at that time. But something like that is not like sexual orientation, it's not a costume or make up or music or clothes. I decided to be a goth you can't decide to be lesbian.

Popchyk · 18/07/2019 23:40

Not to make light of the thread, but this made me laugh today.

Louise Moody tried a little experiment.

twitter.com/drlouisejmoody/status/1151955599564955655

"Wanting to know why my lesbian friends were saying dating apps. were overran by trans women, I joined #okcupid with minimal info (NOT looking!), & my first 'match' at 95% (!) was with the trans woman who banned me from York LGBT group for saying that Anne Lister was a lesbian".

TheRedBarrows · 18/07/2019 23:46

StillHere2019 Thank you do much for your powerful, clear and moving post. You should be paid a feature fee for that in one of our broadsheet papers.

“or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.) “ . It does sound like much, hella much, and it is heartbreaking that having endured such a frightening outcast emotional life, the very community that first was able to offer recognition and a safe space is now the community persecuting women such as yourself as vehemently as those you first felt different from.

It is cruel and perverse, and ‘much’.

Do people actually say that ‘mouthfeel’ and ‘cope’ stuff? Perverse and terrifying.

Italiangreyhound · 19/07/2019 01:05

StillHere2019 Goodness, how unusual!

Everything is a 'feeling' or an 'experience'. Sometimes things just are a fact.

I'm sorry it is so tough.

JessSilver · 20/07/2019 17:37

@StillHere2019 I agree with everything you have written. Bravo for getting all that in writing. No-one in their right minds could not pretend there isn't a massive problem with misogyny and lesbophobia in the heart of the queer-LGBT. :(

StillHere2019 · 27/09/2019 07:46

An interesting if depressing thread from other lesbians who had previously been comfortable with their sexuality but are now experiencing internalised homophobia due to the current TQ movement:
www.reddit.com/r/truelesbians/comments/d8vac6/more_stressed_about_being_lesbian_since_this_terf/

OP posts:
KatvonHostileExtremist · 27/09/2019 09:06

That's a painful read stillhere

It amazes me how people accept the homophobia in all of this. And biphobia too.

Ereshkigal · 27/09/2019 09:26

Posted your post on my Cotton Ceiling Evidence collection thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Shetheyhim · 27/09/2019 09:35

Such a well written piece that I found quite heartbreaking. That the situation caused you to question your own sexuality and that you tried to feel something sexually for men? I found that really sad. I actually had this thought - why isn’t there a word for a woman who is only attracted to females before doh! I reminded myself there was such a word ‘lesbian’ and that brought it home to me.

This whole frustrating mess is all about people co-opting our words/titles/descriptors. If you are a female who is sexually attracted to a trans woman then don’t call yourself a lesbian; if you are a trans woman sexually attracted to a female don’t call yourself a lesbian; if you are a trans woman sexually attracted to a trans woman don’t call yourself a lesbian. I’m not offering up any suggestions as to what you should call yourself (and if you are a trans man attracted to another trans man I have no objection to you proclaiming yourselves lesbians but I don’t think that’s going to happen is it?) Just don’t co-opt the word lesbian when you don’t fit the criteria for what that word means FGS.

Maybe ‘queer’ is a good word to use for all these other combos but lesbian? Nah!

CuriousJim80 · 27/09/2019 16:43

Lesbians rule. As an asexual guy I think I've always felt drawn to gay women because I don't feel they are a threat.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 27/09/2019 20:41

try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it

I'm attracted to men and if someone said this to me I'd still want to smack them. Coercive, creepy, just all around inappropriate.

What's happened to the lesbian community is a travesty and I'd love to know how it happened. Was there a plan right from the beginning, the way there was with organizational capture and TRAs? Or is it just a whole lot of men using female socialization against women over many years with the assistance of penis worshiping handmaidens?

Springfern · 27/09/2019 20:48

@aliasundercover bisexuals, they'll be coming for you next

They already are! When I mention I'm bisexual, I've been told a number of times 'you mean pansexual'.

Thanks for this post OP

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 27/09/2019 20:53

"No, actually, I do not mean pansexual"

Also jokes about attraction to cookware and Greek gods with hooves.

Aspley · 27/09/2019 20:59

The whole thing is a mess. We are desperate for a new LGB group to take on Stonewall.
I had thought that finally lesbians were close to being accepted in general by society. Now suddenly we are not even welcome within LGBT.
The woke brigade need seriously called out.

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