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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being a homosexual female in a community of queer people, transbians and penis-inclusionary lesbians

211 replies

StillHere2019 · 25/06/2019 01:06

Firstly, sorry, that this is a much longer post than I anticipated. I originally wanted to write a post mainly aimed at other lesbians who are struggling with everything that’s going on at the moment with the queer movement but it was difficult to find anywhere to put it that was anonymous, not a ‘queer’ space and not a specifically radfem space and it morphed into a rather longer post and a bit different than I intended once I started writing it down.

To be clear, when I’m talking about lesbians I mean female homosexuals – biological women who are only attracted to other biological women. The meaning of the term has been changed a lot. At first, it was just males who identify as women and sometimes their female wives/partners who were calling themselves lesbians - The term lesbian was pretty unpopular generally until very recently, with queer being the more acceptable alternative for women. However, over the past year or so, the word lesbian has started being used a lot and its meaning expanded much further. For example, it is used as an umbrella term for all lesbian, bi, queer, pangender, feminine-identified people and also just as an identity that you can choose if it feels right to you (so you can get couples who are both opposite sex and opposite gender e.g. a transman and a transwoman who identify as lesbians, people who don’t identify as being women identifying as lesbians, he/him lesbians etc).

I’m someone who came out as a lesbian a long time ago. Although I’m out to most people in my life, I don’t really talk about a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me. I think there’s some stuff that straight people would understand (like that I lost my job because of my sexuality and had no legal recourse because it wasn’t illegal to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation) and some that I think is difficult to understand if you haven’t experienced it or probably doesn’t sound like much (e.g. growing up knowing that you are this thing that people only talked about as something disgusting or as a joke, knowing that your family and community would reject you if they knew but not having access to any alternative community that you could be part of.)

When I was able to move away to a city, I finally met other LGB people - and, while the community was male dominated and often misogynistic, I was with other people who had had similar experiences to me, felt a sense of belonging and we worked to build the community, support others coming out and fight for our rights.

Over time things seemed to be getting better, for me personally in finding my community, but attitudes and laws had changed too. It wasn’t perfect, of course – I’d be cautious about who I was out to, or if I held my girlfriend’s hand in public but that was okay. I’d compare it to the way women have to be cautious and security conscious in ways that don’t even occur to men. Yes, it shouldn’t happen but it becomes so much second nature that it’s normal and you don’t really think about it. I could accept the past and everything that had happened to me because things were improving and we had fought for that change so that younger lesbians wouldn’t have to experience what we had gone through.

Seeing what is happening now, especially for younger (female homosexual) lesbians, I have found it difficult to accept that my past and what I had experienced was actually probably as good as it got for lesbians. I saw similar things, similar perceptions about lesbians, that I’d heard back in the bad old days returning disguised in woke language – and coming out of the mouths of self-identified progressive, queer people who claimed to be part of my community. I saw everything going backwards for lesbians, while from the outside it looked like everything was still there – that we had our rights, our community, our organisations, our venues, our Pride celebrations, which were actually now filled with queer-identified people embracing their chosen identities and kinks, and waving their rainbow flags around, while the gay men largely carried as normal, unaffected, or even enjoying the opportunity to put the boot into lesbians.

When I was growing up, it was being same-sex attracted and having relationships with women that was considered immoral and that attitude came from outside the LGB community but now it is not being attracted to males and not being open to relationships with men that is considered wrong. So there are plenty of people who are involved in the queer movement who embrace the notion of same-sex activity between women (from women who are actually bisexual to those who will put on a bit of a show for the men as part of a queer, kinky lifestyle to others who adopt the language but only actually get involved with biological males) as long as you are also open to sex with males.

It started more subtly maybe about 12 -15 years ago with the message that sexuality was fluid and the slogan ‘hearts not parts’ repeatedly appearing in articles on lesbian sites (now rebranded as queer women’s sites) – and they did make it sound to me like it was a better, purer, more progressive way to be - to be open-minded and willing to love the right person for their heart, regardless of their sex. It didn’t occur to me at the time that I was only ever seeing this slogan on lesbian sites – that out of the four groups of people only attracted to one sex, it was only lesbians who were being bombarded with the idea that we could change our sexual orientation and become nicer, better people by being open to sex with men. After a while of seeing this message from ‘my community’, I decided that I should at least be open-minded about the possibility of a relationship with a man so, for a period, I went around being open to feeling attraction to men… to no effect. I didn’t meet any men I felt attracted to so in practice the open-minded thing didn’t make any difference to me. (Back then it was only about considering men as possible sexual partners and someone you could potentially be attracted to, not encouraging you to overcome your feelings and ‘try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it’ or advising you that ‘if you repeatedly have sex with someone with a penis you could learn to cope with it’.)

It is only more recently that this message about a positive, superior, open-minded sexuality has also been combined with openly negative comments about perverted, weird ‘genital fetishists’ (a lot of which echoes views about lesbians from when I was younger, that I thought we’d moved past) – and I also started seeing this happening in real life, not just online – although I may have been slow to see it and younger women in university and youth clubs probably experienced it a lot sooner. The message was that sexuality was fluid, everyone had the potential to be attracted to both/all sexes/genders and not being attracted to males was a kind of prejudice (both anti-trans and anti-male) or a personality flaw that we could and should overcome. It is (for now) only not being open to transwomen’s ‘girld*cks’ that makes you a TERF and that will get you actually excluded and possibly attacked but not being open to sex with males who still identify as men can also attract criticism and get you rounded on by queer people.

Around this time, I became involved in gender critical feminism and then later came into contact with radical feminists and lesbian feminists and again the belief that being a lesbian was a choice (albeit a positive one) and that lesbians had been taken in by a politically-expedient narrative that sexual orientation was fixed.

A few years ago, I couldn’t have imagined myself questioning my sexuality like I have been doing - these kind of issues were mainly experienced by people who were just coming out, and I used to be someone who supported women in that situation. But there were so many messages from different sources – including sources that I had thought of previously as ‘on my side’ - that sexuality was fluid, that everyone had the potential to experience attraction to both sexes and being a lesbian was a choice I had made. I can’t really explain how I ended up thinking the things I did because it didn’t tally with my experience and the experiences of other lesbians I knew but so much of what I thought I knew and where I had felt safe and accepted for years had been turned upside down – my sense of belonging in the LGBT community, that we had a shared ‘cause’, my faith in organisations I’d trusted, my belief in and belonging to the left - that I just didn’t know what to think anymore ….and I was questioning everything I believed or thought I knew or trusted in.

I knew I hadn’t made a conscious, deliberate choice to be a lesbian but if it wasn’t something that was just natural for me – and if everyone had the potential for opposite sex attraction - the only way I could make sense of it was that I’d made a mistake when I was a kid – that I’d mistaken feelings of friendship or admiration for girls for something else and accidentally sent myself down this path by labelling myself as (or fearing myself to be) a lesbian and accidentally shutting off the feelings I could otherwise have developed for the opposite sex. This really played on my mind and I felt so angry at myself at the thought that I’d done this all to myself – all the shit that had happened when I was younger and everything that was happening now - that I started hurting myself, which was the start of a downward spiral. After feeling okay and even fairly optimistic about things a few years ago, I hated being a lesbian and all the crap that went with it and really struggled with the idea that I could have had a different life and none of this needed to have happened.

Radical and lesbian feminism provided an alternative to the negative views about lesbians from the queer community, with the message that being a lesbian was a wonderful, happy choice that improved your life but this was just so alien to my experience, and especially where I was at that time. Even the supposed positives didn’t ring true to my life - like that it provided a woman-centred life, when being a lesbian had led me to be separated from and sometimes shunned by other women who felt uncomfortable around lesbians.

I wanted – and knew I needed – to get help to deal with all of this but the LGBT organisations which offered the support, counselling and mental health services for sexuality issues were no longer somewhere I felt I would be safe, let alone supported.

Since then, I’ve found some support elsewhere and am working through this but I’m also trying to work out where I go from here and where I belong.

My response to everything that was going on had been to run away from all the crap in the LGBTQ community and replace it in my life with gender critical feminist groups. I’ve met some brilliant, inspiring, lovely women through the trans issue and I feel I have to stay involved because it’s too important and now is too critical a time not to.

But I also think I need to find a way to stay engaged with what is left of the lesbian community, with people I have shared experience with and a shared culture and history. I know I am a lot more fortunate than many younger lesbians whose lives and friendship groups are much more embroiled in the trans and queer ideology.

Where previously very few of us dared to speak about this issue, over the past year or so, I’ve had a number of lesbians talk to me privately about the trans issue or abuse they’ve received in the queer community for not being attracted to males, or tell me that they’ve signed a petition I shared online, and sometimes the trans topic has been cautiously brought up in public when everyone senses they are in safe company. Not all lesbians are as involved in this issue as I am but, while I know – and avoid – a couple of women who are full-on transactivist allies, everyone else has either shared my concerns or, if they don’t agree, they haven’t said anything or de-friended me.

This has been in sharp contrast to the way things are going in the LGBTQ community generally where the threats and policing of lesbians have got more explicit. Anti-TERF rhetoric from organisations, businesses and individuals has escalated massively with anti-TERF posters and speakers at LGBTQ events whipping crowds up against ‘TERFs’, calling for, at best, exclusion, but also for violence. Organisations and events are also increasingly introducing ‘safe spaces agreements’ - which you have to agree to go to an event or access a service – and which are all about pronouns and trans and queer identities and reporting any other service user or attendee who you view as ‘problematic’. They realise that lesbians are starting to discuss concerns and object as the demands and behaviour of the trans/queer group get more extreme so they need to make us feel too scared to share our experiences and discuss these issues openly.

There are layers to the LGBTQ community. At the centre are the LGBTQ organisations and groups and the ‘gay scene’ (mainly bars and clubs) which have been completely colonised (with collaboration from misogynistic gay men) and then there are more peripheral, less formal groups and then groups of lesbian/bi friends socialising away from the scene. It’s a bit of an oversimplification as life is always messier than that but generally, unless you’re in the younger age group, the further away from the centre you are, the better things are so that’s where I’ll be – away from the organisations, groups and bars that I used to consider my community and finding my community with other lesbians in non-queer spaces.

I know this doesn’t provide a solution for younger lesbians and I’ve no idea how long this will provide a solution for me. I could never had imagined a few years ago that we’d be in this position now – Hell, even a year ago, despite being gender critical, I couldn’t have imagined how much the situation would have escalated in such a short space of time. So I’ve no idea where we’ll be or what options there will be for lesbians in a few years’ time but I’m just trying to find ways to manage for now.

OP posts:
StillHere2019 · 29/09/2019 09:57

Ereshkigal There's another thread on that reddit group posted earlier this week from a young lesbian who had just been sexually assaulted by a transbian "friend" - and another woman in the same thread who'd had an almost identical experience Sad I'm not sure of the etiquette of linking to such a sensitive post from elsewhere - although I suppose as she's put it online I'm probably over-thinking it?

At least she has posted on the one lesbian reddit group that is for real lesbians and is getting supportive comments. I dread to think what response she'd get if she had posted for support or advice on any of the other supposedly lesbian/queer women subreddits out there. Sad

OP posts:
VickyEadieofThigh · 29/09/2019 10:12

I too have distanced myself from most LGB(TQI) groups as I no longer feel represented, which cant be said of gay men really. I feel so disappointed and like I no longer fit in that group as a lesbian.

Yup. The oppression of women is bad enough, but the cult has decidedly embraced the 'oppress lesbians sexually' concept.

FWRLurker · 29/09/2019 14:38

It’s nuts. Are people really saying now that sexuality is NEVER fixed and is always a choice?? Because that is just insane to me. It’s not been that long since marriage equality passed and there a big part of the argument is you absolutely cannot choose who (what biological class(es) of people) you love.

This sounds like conservative Christianity at this point. If you can choose who you love then why shouldn’t we all just be straight, that’d be easier right? UGH.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/09/2019 16:25

(5) Now that I have answered these questions, could those who posed them (and others) help me with my query, which can be reduced to asking why those from minority groups would not be stronger and better regarded if more effort went into understanding, accommodating and supporting each other rather than (what looks like to me) promotion of conflict.

In the event that you manage to find anyone on the trans side who's not written off by their own demographic as a traitor (Miranda Yardley, etc) who's making any effort whatsoever to understand, accommodate, or support women who have concerns about the way trans activism is impacting our rights then I trust that you'll let us know.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/09/2019 16:31

Anecdata, I know, but every young lesbian I know has been either sexually harassed or assaulted by a transbian. Literally every damn one. And they're all scared to talk about it because when they do their social group tends to turn on them rather than the person who violated their boundaries.

Ereshkigal · 29/09/2019 17:44

It's awful.

Ereshkigal · 29/09/2019 17:50

I dread to think what response she'd get if she had posted for support or advice on any of the other supposedly lesbian/queer women subreddits out there.

YY. I don't want to draw too much attention to this specific subreddit where lesbians have support as it might be targeted by TRAs.

I did post an example (from a different subreddit) of the blind cluelessness of the genderist position on what constitutes a lesbian on the Cotton Ceiling thread I linked below.

Aspley · 29/09/2019 20:17

@TheProdigalKittensReturn
It's dreadful, i have no words. Young lesbians should be supported but instead the very people who should be there for them (LGBT groups and especially Stonewall - and fucking Diva) have turned their backs.

There is zero difference between a transwomen* hassling a lesbian and a man hassling a lesbian.

Yet for some reason the aforementioned is getting a free pass, the other would be vilified of they tried it. It's fucking disgusting, why will no one speak out?

(*Transwomen are male - FACT - a lesbian is a SAME-SEX attracted female. I can't quite fathom how this needs explaining in 2019).

NellieEllie · 29/09/2019 20:45

Your post is very articulate and moving OP. It is a hard time for lesbians. I feel as though we are experiencing a second wave of misogyny. There is a fight ahead for all women, straight and gay, though the hate and pressure on young lesbians is vile. Sorry you are going through this.

Aspley · 29/09/2019 20:54

@RobinMoirawhite
"On that basis, I struggle to see how trans and lesbians shouldn't be allies, not fighting with each other."

"The general population appears to be (understandably) bemused that radical feminists and trans folk are not working out how to support each other rather than turning up at rallies and shouting at each other. I certainly am so bemused."

I expect you are either extremely naive or extremely disingenuous.

At what point should lesbians be allies with a group that is denying the existence of female homosexuality?
A group spending an inordinate amount of time gaslighting lesbians into accepting "lady-dick" and redefining what a lesbian is?
A group that has fractured the LGBT to the extent that lesbians either have to shut up and take this gaslighting or remove themselves (or be excluded) from LGBT spaces.
Telling lesbians that there is something wrong with their sexuality if they reject males is straight out of the homophobia copybook, it is exactly the same as the homophobia coming from the right wing/religious groups.
It all feels the same, it is all the same when one is on the wrong end of it.
Lesbians should be allowed to say no and not be called names.
I really don't understand why transwomen do not go for straight women, they are far more likely to be successful, why is it always lesbians who are the targets? Why?

Ereshkigal · 29/09/2019 21:17

I really don't understand why transwomen do not go for straight women, they are far more likely to be successful, why is it always lesbians who are the targets? Why?

Because they know that's why a straight or bisexual woman might be interested. Because they are male. Only a lesbian would validate their "womanhood" and that's the important thing here.

They also know that they can weaponise the LGBT community against non compliant lesbian women, as women weren't that important in the first place.

Datun · 29/09/2019 21:23

Because they know that's why a straight or bisexual woman might be interested

Exactly. Straight women date men. So can't validate their identity.

Aspley · 29/09/2019 21:33

I get that, but if getting a shag is the aim they are daft for going for lesbians.
It's like me going to only heterosexual dating nights and expecting/demanding straight woman to want me - I would not do that as it would be offensive and a waste of everyone's time.

The weaponising of the LGBT to defend them and their need for validation is a good point. It's incredible they have managed to hoodwink them into defending homophobia.

BritinSwitzerland · 07/05/2020 01:04

I am a 26 year old lesbian who has been a long-time reader of mumsnet, and who eventually plans to marry a woman and have kids. I have gone back on the internet during this time with coronavirus and really I am scared about what I am reading. Apparently I am now transphobic because I do not want a penis in my bedroom. Truthfully, if I were even interested in penises at all (I am not), I would just date a man. Many of these transbians are posting naked photos of themselves with penis included and receiving praise from fellow transbians, who appear to dominate sites like Reddit.

I have been on Tinder recently and compared to a few years ago, dating apps now seem to have a high proportion of transbians (I had never encountered this before this year). Some of them disguise their face with Snapchat filters. Truthfully, it is making me afraid to date as I don’t want to bring someone home only to discover they have a penis. I realise this will not be pleasant to hear for some, but I keep reading of lesbians who have had had something similar happen to them. There is no way I could fight off a biological male who tricks their way into my home. There is a book named ‘Girl Sex 101’ that is telling its readers ‘You don’t have to like penises, but I suggest keeping an open mine and learning about them anyway’. This is sexual coercion and there would be an outcry if this logic were forced on any other group than lesbians.

I respect that straight women are not interested in me... why can biological males not respect that I am not interested in them?

A lack of attraction is not transphobia. I hope that other lesbians support each other and are also supported by straight and bi women in understanding this issue. We shouldn’t be coerced like this.

aliasundercover · 07/05/2020 02:23

it is making me afraid to date as I don’t want to bring someone home only to discover they have a penis

You'll realise they have a penis long before you think about taking them home. Usually within the first 10 seconds of meeting them.

FairPoint · 07/05/2020 02:25

i had not seen this thread before. The OP's message was a detailed and genuine account, I felt.

How horrific it must be to be an actual lesbian these days? No wonder lesbians were common amongst those who first alerted us to the tra culture. eg Julie B.

What I can't figure, as a gc heterosexual female, is just what actually are these so called lesbians or queer women who willingly accept penis? It is beyond parody, and by the sound of it ruining dating lives for young lesbians (the proper kind). i am post menopausal so dating apps are a bit unknown, but I understand them to be very important now. A lesbian is in danger potentially meeting a fellow lesbian with a dick! All I can say is meet in a public space, but as a het female this is par for the course even in my era!

Kantastic · 07/05/2020 05:35

fellow transbians, who appear to dominate sites like Reddit.

FYI there is a subreddit called truelesbians that is female-only. Of course it is much smaller and harder to find than the transbian dominated "lesbian" subs.

Kit19 · 07/05/2020 08:50

i feel so sorry for young lesbians. you see a lot of posts on twitter from young lesbians ranting - "hello lesbians dont do dick dude!" and complaining about men coming on to them

and then inevitably someone will say "what about TW?"

and they'll parrot back instantly "TWAW dude"

i think for them TWAW is an extension of being kind and they dont think of it in a sexual way if that makes sense

Shedbuilder · 07/05/2020 16:04

Sorry, this has turned out really long.

I'm an old-school radical lesbian feminist, a Greenham woman, verging on separatist at times. The sort of unfashionable lesbian that a lot of young, lipstick-wearing gay gals with their boy pals have mocked or been scared of for years but definitely didn't want to be like.

I went to a feminist conference five or so years ago and the younger women were often pretty scathing towards those of my generation (I'm early 60s). Many of them were already caught up in queer politics, many were already supporting transgenderism. I and several of the other older radical lesbians would meet up for a drink in the evenings and wonder what we were doing there. What was this new feminism that looked down its nose at us? And why were they so focussed on supporting men?

A few years on and I think it's clear that that new intersectional feminism isn't feminism because it doesn't centre women. And that queer politics is anti-women. And that the transgender movement is profoundly misogynistic. It wasn't us, it was them. Someone infiltrated feminism and turned women against women.

These days I'm involved in several truelesbian-only and GC women's groups. We fly under the radar in closed groups on social networking platforms. We run them on strict lines. You have to be introduced by someone we know and trust who'll vouch for you before we'll add your name to our list and let you in on our activities. You don't talk to your queer or non-binary friends about us and if you do, you're out. And we don't allow transmen or 'non-binary' females, who usually argue that we should on the basis that they used to be dykes and they're still dykes at heart. 'C'mon, you know I'm still a woman really...' No, no, no.

We're not motivated to be kind. We don't care about the men and their feelings. We're strict. We thought we'd end up as a tiny group of dinosaurs. It's been a surprise to find how many younger lesbians and GC women have asked to join because they understand that it's a safe group and that the old dragons will protect them. And we are quietly teaching them that women don't have to be kind, that it's okay to be fierce and ugly, it's okay to say no and that feminism is totally centred on women —women-born-women — and anyone who says otherwise isn't your friend.

We've watched other groups 'be kind' and admit transwomen. There's one 50 miles from here that decided to be nice to a self-ID'd young transwoman. Soon 'she' was all over their FB page posting pix in maxi-skirts with long, lank hair (not a lesbian look, frankly) even though there was a rule that no one posted pix of themselves. Lots of attention-seeking behaviour, hundreds of super-nice comments and effusive compliments. Dismaying to watch the women being reeled in to the game. Whenever anyone new arrived this individual was all over them, particularly if they talked about being vulnerable or in a difficult situation. I hear on the grapevine that several of those who were sucked in have had their heads fucked by this person and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the abuse was physical too. You could see it happening. I tried to draw attention to it and was banned from that group for being unkind. Others I know are still on it, still enjoy some of the camaraderie, but are increasingly spooked as more and more transwomen have turned up, posting photos — to the point where that particular 'lesbian' group seems trans-dominated. And still the women running it don't understand what's going on and hope it'll blow over.

This is perhaps why our group is growing — because lesbians know that we won't let that happen. Maybe some of them even think they can learn a thing or two from us. Perhaps late in life we've become role models for a different way of approaching life.

So, OP, I'd suggest you find two or three friends you can trust and who feel the same as you and you start slowly creating your own lesbian GC. We have a limited online presence but in normal non-Covid circumstances we would have some kind of social activity most weeks. Establish firm rules — no one born male, no one who used to be a woman. Make it clear that you like to think of yourselves as lesbians or dykes and that those who like to think of themselves as queer or non-binary won't find their home here. Be strict. You may find that there are more people who'll want to join you than you expected.

A few years ago when I started publicly questioning the trans agenda in my family and wider social circle I was amazed at the number who expressed relief. It was as if because I called it as bullshit it gave them permission to stop pretending. We have to lead by example.

AnyOldPrion · 07/05/2020 16:26

You give me hope for my daughter’s future, shedbuilder. She’s very accepting of everyone for now - all her friends are the same age. But I suspect at some point, she will appreciate spaces that are woman only. Good to know they do exist.

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/05/2020 17:28

Shedbuilder, I wish there were a lot more women like you and a lot more groups like yours. I very much miss the wonderful women who welcomed me when I first came out and held safe spaces like this. Sadly all TW dominated now in this area, almost all lesbian friends avoid anything labelled LGBT as they know it's not for them. Boundaries. Strong boundaries. There is nothing better that women can teach women as you see on the relationships board every day. And the complaints and woe that boundaries are unkind - is part of the behaviour necessitating strong, healthy boundaries.

try the mouthfeel of different penises even if you don’t think you’ll like it

Why?

That's the question I want to ask the homophobic twit who wrote that quote. Why? The answer would be most illuminating. At a guess it'll be along the usual lines of:

Because you might discover that it's not as bad as you thought - like the lovely biker who insists lesbians can learn to 'cope' with sex with males, if they try. Aka, sex is not for female people to enjoy, it's about the enjoyment of males who are entitled to use your bodies.

Aka, females are male property, not really fully human, and no female should be allowed to deny sex to males: consent and their willingness is irrelevant, and their wanting a say in this is females out of their place. Threats of sexual violence often involved here. Incels write a whole lot about this, and it's fascinating how the incel movement and some of this holds hands.

Another version: if you try it you might find you like it - aka you may discover that you weren't really lesbian at all, your inner feelings and attractions were all just silly fancies, you'd just never given dick a fair try before! (hint the T inner feelings and attractions are anything but to be taken as gospel however and all hell breaks loose)

See: lesbianism is silly social conditioning that you can unlearn if you try, and is mean because you're denying sex to males which is a failure of your social duty. And males are entitled to your body so stop being silly about it.

It's dire, DIRE stuff. It's appalling misogyny. It's flat out male supremacism.

Z0rr0 · 07/05/2020 17:38

The gay and lesbian community worked so hard to make the world understand that it's not a lifestyle choice, it's who you are. That's why sexuality became a protected characteristic, so you can't face abuse or discrimination (in theory) for your sexuality.
To have a movement now suggesting again that it is a choice and to have the OP questioning herself that she somehow did this to herself is horrendous.
How can they think this is progress when it takes LGB people right back to where they started? Just awful. So sad.

Shedbuilder · 07/05/2020 17:48

Michelle oftheresistance, if you have two GC lesbian friends then talk about starting a group for women like you. Chances are that you will know a few other women who may be interested if they know that you're not going to bow to the T. From there it will grow slowly. It won't be easy but it's doable. There are several people I've said no to because although they are sure they're radical feminists I hear them saying/ see them writing things that alarm me. Unfortunately at the moment, when this is so serious a threaten to women, women's rights and women's autonomy, we can't afford to be nice or easy-going or include everyone. We need to be sure that in at least one corner of our lives we have women who get it and can back us up, and pick us up, when we need it.

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 07/05/2020 18:06

I'll admit as a middle aged heterosexual woman I am stunned at the abuse lesbians get from people who claim to be within the LGBT community, and I'm really uncomfortable with the term queer, when I was young it was a slur, often followed with violence. Its like me calling myself a n***, unthinkable and degrading.

Michelle you're absolutely right the question to ask is why? And the inevitable answer is women are not seen as individual people with our own inner life and sexual desires / need that for some have nothing yo do with men.

I haven't been on Twitter for ages because its a misogynistic cesspit, but I do want to be an ally to lesbians.

Michelleoftheresistance · 07/05/2020 18:35

The gay and lesbian community worked so hard to make the world understand that it's not a lifestyle choice, it's who you are. That's why sexuality became a protected characteristic, so you can't face abuse or discrimination (in theory) for your sexuality. To have a movement now suggesting again that it is a choice...

The T political lobby have wholly appropriated the 'it's not a lifestyle choice, it's who you are' by aligning with LGB.

And then proceeded to try and claim that homosexuality is just a lifestyle choice (and a naughty, silly one that's socially irresponsible, based on nothing more than social conditioning and people have a responsibility to get over it even if they don't want to - 'learn to cope')

while at the same time

making it wholly unacceptable to apply the same equal standards to a choice of identity, the belief of gendered souls, and the bleeding obvious influence of awful gender stereotypes. And that's only from female people saying please stop damaging female people and respect the boundaries we need; no one is saying, or wanting to say 'if you really tried you could learn to cope with being x biological sex' because it would be a fucking awful thing to do.

The lobby gets away with it because it directs it exclusively at female people, and (demonstrating the actual, real oppressed group) misogyny is not only perfectly acceptable but currently quite fashionable.

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