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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SCOTTISH GRA REFORM ANNOUNCEMENT BROUGHT FORWARD

467 replies

Mbwashenzi · 18/06/2019 18:59

It was going to be announced on the 25th - now moved forward to Thursday. Anyone going to join me in the public gallery at Holyrood??

twitter.com/wornoutmumhack/status/1140953953758261248?s=19

OP posts:
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14
PencilsInSpace · 22/06/2019 20:50

DonkeySkin please don't for a moment imagine I am settling for crumbs.

Shifting the overton window is absolutely necessary but on its own it's not enough.

We also have to make things better now for women and girls who need female only services today. Their crises cannot wait for us to shift the window and hammer out long term solutions. I will support any tweaks to the law that secure better rights for women and girls now, provided that they don't make things worse.

I will also continue to campaign for the repeal of bullshit nonsensical laws that make a mockery of sex, the meanings of woman and female, and all of our rights.

We need to do both.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 22/06/2019 21:24

Strongly agree that it's time to stop firefighting and start pushing back. They've been 10 steps ahead at every move so far, we need to take back the power somehow.

Also, the impact assessment, we need to make sure that this is done from the position that TWAM.

"is it safe to let men who identify as women in women's shelter?"
NO. Easy.

But if you start from the view that TWAW then there is no conflict.

"is it safe to let women who are trans in women's shelter?"
Yes, they remain single sex
Yes, we wouldn't exclude any other women

Even if you say "no because they still look male/ are male bodied" you'll get "but but but how do you know? What does a man/woman look like? You're just stereotyping. Are you going to exclude butch women too if they look too masculine?"

Remember Janet from the select committee, how she said that some of the survivors at her shelter had been upset by the inclusion of a "male presenting" TW and she gave that stupid tinkly laugh and said "what does that even mean, there's no right way to look like a woman". It was so disingenuous, it really boiled my piss. And that TW convict who was almost moved back to the male estate for being "male presenting" and argued around it based on the fact that they couldn't prescribe how a woman was supposed to look. If you start from the premise that TWAW then there is no conflict with inclusion in female spaces, and no prescriptions that can be made on behaviour or appearance (within the law).

ZebrasAreBras · 22/06/2019 23:27

TWAW is what has got us here.

And the 'misgendering' is 'literal violence', ie. it's equivocal for men to punch women for misgendering as it s for women to 'misgender' - ie. correctly gender men.

This is male violence against women - this is men encroaching on women's spaces, women's rights, the whole thing is an assault against women.

Women's rights are for women, not men. Women's rights are for people who are born female. GRA makes a mockery of this.

OvaHere · 23/06/2019 09:35

That's a good article in The Spectator. Nice to see someone other than James Kirkup expressing a reasoned opinion (not that James hasn't be great - just good that other voices are speaking out).

I liked this Grin

The Scottish Government’s volte-face is all the more remarkable since it has come about not thanks to a powerful or well-funded lobby but from a loose network of women causing enough trouble to get themselves listened to.

boatyardblues · 23/06/2019 09:35

That’s a great Spectator article.

OvaHere · 23/06/2019 09:40

Also this

What is clear is that, while the Scottish Government has provided an object lesson in how not to manage major policy change, gender-critical feminists have set a gold standard in how to challenge such a change

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/06/2019 09:44

At Edinburgh Pride, as part of his speech Harvie said he was "sorry that this parliament very recently was used as a platform for transphobic hatred and bigotry".

Wanker.

Popchyk · 23/06/2019 09:47

"Reinforcements came in the form of Canadian feminist Meghan Murphy and British activist Julie Bindel, the Thelma and Louise of terfdom in the eyes of the trans movement".

Ha.

EweSurname · 23/06/2019 09:47

Is there really a chance it won’t go through as the spectator suggests?

Despite Scottish Government assurances that there is still time to pass a Bill, this parliament has less than two years left and, if Nicola Sturgeon is to be believed, will be holding a second independence referendum next year. The odds on GRA reform not making it to the finishing line are healthy but its opponents have sketched out practical ways of improving trans people’s lives in the meantime. Those interested in more than a culture war should take them up on it.

JoyceJeffries · 23/06/2019 09:50

Harvie hates women so I expected nothing less from him.

He’s also a list MSP. (I really find the whole list MSP thing a total abomination but that’s for another debate)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/06/2019 09:58

Is there really a chance it won’t go through as the spectator suggests?

It'll be incredibly tight if it does. Assuming they follow the process properly, and people are watching now, all of the issues brought up in the original consultation will need to be resolved. And they can't be.

It is possible ScotGov will just try to shove it through for woke points, but now that it is out in the open they might find it difficult...

OvaHere · 23/06/2019 10:06

If they consult properly then it's going to throw up endless conundrums that are going to be virtually impossible to legislate for in a reasonable and measured way whilst still keeping the trans lobby happy and upholding the mythical notion that people can change sex.

The fine detail will cause a lot of hold ups if they really intend to proceed with care.

Michelleoftheresistance · 23/06/2019 11:40

"sorry that this parliament very recently was used as a platform for transphobic hatred and bigotry"

Transphobic hatred and bigotry = carrying out impact assessments. And thinking about the girls being excluded from single sex spaces when males are included there.

It's that blatant now. Considering anyone else and their needs is 'transphobic hatred'. Great look for an MSP, really. Good luck getting that to fly with the general public. The article nails it.

GC Women's position: TRA lobby has some points, trans people need safety and provision and to present anyway they wish without discrimination, but this isn't the way to do it as it trashes women's rights. More thought and other options needed than just handing over women's rights.

Trans lobby position: you may not consider the impact on anyone else, at all, you may not even discuss it, we don't give a fuck for anyone else's needs or interests. Hand over women's rights and shut up, nothing else will do.

Verastsnhope · 23/06/2019 11:42

So much wailing and gnashing on Twitter aimed at those of us in Scotland who actively promoted email templates etc in the run up to this. It’s exhausting. The worst culprits are men 🤔. Bearded so called cis men who are hugely invested in this. Everyone shouting about transphobia, nobody smart enough to ( or wanting to ) see that this clashed with the EA. Scotland couldn’t ride rough shod over uk law even if it wanted to! It’s like facts don’t exist anymore.

Verastsnhope · 23/06/2019 11:53

This nasty piece of work has been relentless. Vile person is actually advising the Scottish Government so she has ears in high places so to speak. She’s currently got Joan McAlpine in her misogynistic crosshairs 🤬

SCOTTISH GRA REFORM ANNOUNCEMENT BROUGHT FORWARD
Apollo440 · 23/06/2019 12:13

The TRAs will now try to limit the scope of the consultation to prevent GC arguments being heard. Like a starting point of TWAW and not having to provide a definition or justify who is covered by the definition of Trans who could apply for a GRC. An unrestricted consultation will expose them to too much antiseptic daylight.

CharlieParley · 23/06/2019 12:33

Cannot believe it's come to this but bravo Stephen Daisley! Don't think I have ever agreed with him on anything and we've had some heated arguments on Twitter about independence, but that is a bloody brilliant article. Nice turns of phrase, too.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 23/06/2019 12:52

I think Twitter skews perception - it's far from an accurate sample of the populace, is heavily weighted towards some demographics and excludes some others. It gives a false impression of so many things.

DuMondeB · 23/06/2019 13:04

And in other good news, the person who attempted to attack Julie Bindel has been charged.

SCOTTISH GRA REFORM ANNOUNCEMENT BROUGHT FORWARD
DuMondeB · 23/06/2019 13:10

‘Protester charged for ‘abusing’ feminist

The Scotsman 22
Jun 2019
By GINA DAVIDSON
A 25-year-old has been charged with threatening and abusive behaviour after a women’s rights event at Edinburgh University earlier this month.
The person was cautioned and charged by Police Scotland after it was reported to them that Julie Bindel – a leading UK feminist – had been verbally abused and “almost punched”.
The campaigner had been speaking about male violence towards women at a discussion on the future of women’s rights at the university’s George Square campus. The incident occurred when she left the building.
A report will be sent to procurator fiscal, which will decide on the next steps. A police spokesperson said: “A 25-year-old has been charged in connection with a report of threatening and abusive behaviour.”

ZebrasAreBras · 23/06/2019 13:19

Good.

So many stories of men's threatening and violent behaviour towards women at the moment, it's making me despair.

ForWomenScotland have done this great long thread of lesbians being threatened and abused at Pride - it seems lesbians are out at Pride, and men wearing dog masks are in.

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1142535847411163136

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASaving · 23/06/2019 13:30

We reeeeeally need Joan (or anyone) to make sure that the scope of the IA and consultation a) includes women b) includes gender critical women c) includes the actual service users of women's orgs (women in prison/ shelters) not just the captured people running them and d) starts from the POV that TWAM. If we can't do that then the whole consultation will be worthless.