Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

The Working together to Safeguard Children 2013 guidance by HM Government provides an explanation which can be expanded to suit a wide range of environments:

“Safeguarding children - the action we take to promote the welfare of children and protect them from harm - is everyone’s responsibility. Everyone who comes into contact with children and families has a role to play”.

It's not just a trope Agreed it isn't JUST a trope. It is, however, still a trope. Glad we agree on that.

Again, for all the cries of 'transphobia', I know my kid would be safer around these supposedly bigoted women than they would around many so-called allies.

They are not advocating violence or harm against males who ID as transgender. They understand that minor children need to be protected from over-enthusiastic medical and social pressures that may lead to irreversible physical harm. They support gender non-conforming behaviour. They don't lie about gender and sex. They don't deliberately confuse minors about the difference. They hold males accountable for their own behaviour. They understand that families need support and wouldn't undermine cautious parents. They are not going to tell my child that porn and kink are just fine and dandy, yea, even in the workplace. They won't encourage my child to disassociate from reality.

None of you genderists have anything to offer us. Nothing. If you did, you'd spend less energy scolding women, and more time confronting men about their homophobia, and their violence - because make no mistake, if my kid is in any danger, it's not from GC feminists, it's from blokes who think gay bashing is a fun past time.

So? Doesn't mean I have to stop posting. Sorry if hearing dissent irks you.

It doesn't. I'm just going to keep saying why I think you're utterly naive and wrong.

This is a public forum and anyone can post. I know many posters on here have admitted that they don't want debate
That never happened. Posters mentioned that they come here for discussion and chat, not a protracted battle with entrenched views. You are insinuating that posters have pulled the #nodebate card and that is disingenuous.

Yes R0wantrees, that has already been discussed before you posted.

The NSPCC, which has statutory powers, have told the guides that 14 year old boys sharing tents with girls isn't a safeguarding risk if they're trans. Because that makes them girls too.

They are teenage boys. Not girls. They have been taught to think of boys as girls. The language used is crucial for the inaccuracy.

It doesn't. I'm just going to keep saying why I think you're utterly naive and wrong

That's fine. Knock yourself out.

And I don't actually believe your "I'm so GC" story, so there is that. I'm telling you that I will not moderate my speech for you and you are being overbearing and using emotional blackmail. Give it up. It won't work on anyone here.

You can say what you like. It won't change my actions. I'm sure you'll post more screeds.

This is a public forum and anyone can post. I know many posters on here have admitted that they don't want debate
That never happened

And here comes the denial of facts. Yes, one or two posters did say that they don't want debate.

You can deny that all you want, but I am surprised that on a thread where the whole right to mislabel transwoman is based on people's desperation for "telling the truth", that a fair few don't actually appear to understand the concept.

Still going?!!

I echo what stopthis said.

Plus 'transwoman' is not fully understood by far too much of the population so words like 'trans identifying male' is needed to avoid confusion. And if you say transman some people think you mean a male. It becomes impossible to have a proper discussion with such common mistakes (which some may consider a happy accident - an attitude which should give any sensible person the chills)

Wherever you stand on politeness or the use/abuse of language, more often than not we need the simple objective clarity, regardless of whether some unwell people object to this reminder of their biological sex.

Many mentally ill people find life in general traumatising and triggering, but the rest of us have a duty to carry on being objective and administering the world in a sane fashion so that when they hopefully one day feel better, the world is a safe and rational place to live in, not one that has gone to hell in a handbasket and been warped to mirror the chaos and dysfunction of mental illness that they are trying to get away from.

August 2018 thread

OP HavingALittleBabyToolshed wrote:
"Let’s talk about how safeguarding is being disregarded
It seems like safeguarding is being thrown out the window in favour of gender ideology.
Many of us on this site work in social care, teaching, health care and similar professions where we are well versed in safeguarding principles. Many of us struggle to see such a core framework thrown out in favour of protecting feelings.

Perhaps we should go through point by point and provide evidence of how and why safeguarding principles, procedures and practices are being thwarted and broken down?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3344556-Let-s-talk-about-how-safeguarding-is-being-disregarded

And I don't actually believe your "I'm so GC" story, so there is that. I'm telling you that I will not moderate my speech for you and you are being overbearing and using emotional blackmail. Give it up. It won't work on anyone here

If you think so.

You can say what you like. It won't change my actions. I'm sure you'll post more screeds

You mistake me for someone who cares.

Why don’t people use the term they regard as most accurate, whether that is trans women, transwomen or “males who identify as women” or something else.

We are talking about that group of (male born) persons accessing spaces where women and children shower and sleep.

No one wants to invalidate anyone’s identity or erase them. No one is trying to be offensive. No one is “gleeful” that I can see (wtf). This affects (and has affected) women in refuges and rehab centres. Where are their feelings in all this?

If the right of vulnerable women and children to female spaces was respected (with spaces also for TW and TM), we wouldn’t even need to talk about this.

FOH calling me “transphobic” for saying this.

You can deny that all you want, but I am surprised that on a thread where the whole right to mislabel transwoman

No one is "mislabelling" a male person by pointing out that they are male. You seem to use the same framing as transactivists and their allies do.

(- sorry that was not directed to anyone in particular, just to clarify)

FlyingOink

Great post and female socialisation or not, I think you're lovely for caring about other women feeling safe in the loos

This affects (and has affected) women in refuges and rehab centres. Where are their feelings in all this?

If the right of vulnerable women and children to female spaces was respected (with spaces also for TW and TM), we wouldn’t even need to talk about this.

This.

Why don’t people use the term they regard as most accurate, whether that is trans women, transwomen or “males who identify as women” or something else.

Quite.

I do have to say, I am a little shocked at a GC person using the 'what about transmen' line. Almost as uncommon as 'but intersex' among those who understand the issues.

But there you go. Stranger things have happened.

You said: And here comes the denial of facts. Yes, one or two posters did say that they don't want debate.
I said: Posters mentioned that they come here for discussion and chat, not a protracted battle with entrenched views. You are insinuating that posters have pulled the #nodebate card and that is disingenuous.

So if it's a "fact" that posters said "they don't want debate" you'll be able to find that and give me the time of the specific post right?
I expect you'll argue that you shouldn't have to, but if you're saying something exists and I'm saying it doesn't, it's up to you to prove it.

You mistake me for someone who cares..

Nope. Drawn my own conclusions about your posts, some time back, but not losing sleep (I actually am because insomnia is a bugger - but whatever).

Anyway. Did we all want MN to give some thought to allowing posters to choose their own language when describing people we all agree are male?

Even if some posters wouldn't choose to use that language? Which is also fine, & their choice?

Also the reason I said “TWAW” for a few years was that I thought “transwomen” were all on hormones, post operative (ie no male genitalia), struggling with dysphoria and genuinely trying to live as women.

They are not.

90% of the population still think what I did. Language matters. Language is power.

The NSPCC, which has statutory powers, have told the guides that 14 year old boys sharing tents with girls isn't a safeguarding risk if they're trans. Because that makes them girls too

I agree that is a huge safeguarding risk. But not one person on this thread has agreed that people can biologically change sex. We have all agreed that safe spaces need protecting. The use of the term "trans girl" makes it obvious that biologically the child is male. That's the point of the "trans" prefix.

If the NSPCC have fucked up in their guidance as to how to protect sex specific spaces, that is a separate issue to which word they used to describe the child at the centre of their fuck up.

I thought that the Scouts had since rescinded this policy? Anyway, I get the point you are making. I don't think the term "trans girl" here prevented safeguarding, but it could be argued that the NSPCCs approach ignored the "trans" part of the term.

That is not the fault of the term. That is the fault of someone somewhere not actually applying the meaning of the term. I hope they are sued to kingdom come for putting girls in that position. I would be incandescent if my DD was put in that position. Not because of the word used though. Because "trans girl" means "trans girl", not "girl" otherwise the trans bit would be irrelevant, which it clearly isn't as it exists.

Exactly, 2B. It's obfuscatory and deceptive.

Men are not women. Because of biology. It is not complicated or difficult..

And women need women's single-sex services and spaces. Because they are women and not men.