Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

[happydappy2]

flying I didn’t think you were derailing, the derailers know who they are.

[SpitefulBreasts]

It's also very interesting that there are a few posters on this thread that seem to have an amazing understanding of the innermost thoughts of all the posters on this particular thread.

[OvaHere]

SpitefulBreasts

Lol at your username

[LimeKiwi]

Right at the end of the thread again, it's actually amazing.
The thread was started to discuss the use of banned words so not sure why the faces or reams of links again and accusing of being TRAs this time for not agreeing with you

[DecomposingComposers]

To reiterate, the issue isn't about whether someone feels uncomfortable or not, it's about safety

You might think that safety is the only issue but that is not what is stated repeatedly on this board.

Repeatedly it is said that it is safety plus privacy/dignity. Many, many times it is said that some women, usually for religious or cultural reasons, can't be in intimate spaces with men and so would be excluded from swimming pools or gyms etc if men were in the changing rooms.

My point is, in that case, presumably the presence of a trans man, who looked male, would present the same issue?

So it's not pretending not to understand. It is referring to points repeatedly made on this board.

[LimeKiwi]

It's also very interesting that there are a few posters on this thread that seem to have an amazing understanding of the innermost thoughts of all the posters on this particular thread

No just going by posts, what we're reading and seeing. I am anyway, not speaking for anyone else

[happydappy2]

The OP was about the use of the term transwoman.....

[TruthOnTrial]

Being slurred and abused based on our sex as women is illegal.

One cannot simply appropriate terms that define another and expect the 'others' to simply agree with that... just because offence...in ANY arena, not specific to THIS arena.

Scientifically based terms upon which womens and girls rights and protections and group belonging are based in the world.

[LimeKiwi]

Which is a banned word, yes?

[LimeKiwi]

That was to happy, not truth

[TruthOnTrial]

group belonging is key here

[SpitefulBreasts]

Ovahere
At the time the comment really did make me laugh

[TheInebriati]

The legal rights and protections afforded to women and lesbians are based on the ability to define ourselves as distinct groups, so this really does matter.

[SpitefulBreasts]

LimeKiwi
Cba

[R0wantrees]

Deliberate misreading just means I have to copy and paste what was actually said, and I suppose the tactic is to fill the thread up with that until.it reaches the post limit

One never knows what individual/groups tactics are.

There is a pattern of some posters doing this especially on AIBU threads which attempt to discuss women's rights & Safeguarding issues impacted by transactivism.

There is also a patterned behaviour seen in abusive control relationships:

In other words, a lie that is repeated long enough eventually can be seen as the truth. Researchers Hasher, Goldstein and Toppino (1997) discovered that when a statement (even when it is false and readers know it to be false) is repeated multiple times, it was more likely to be rated as true simply due to the effects of repetition. This is because when we’re assessing a claim, we rely on either the credibility of the source from which the claim is derived or familiarity with that claim. Surprisingly, familiarity often trumps credibility or rationality when assessing the perceived validity of a statement (Begg, Anas, and Farinacci, 1992; Geraci, L., & Rajaram, 2016).

The illusory truth effect can cause us to become susceptible to the effects of another dangerous form of reality erosion known as gaslighting. Deliberate manipulators who gaslight with the intention of eroding your reality and rewriting history tend to use the “illusory truth effect” to their advantage. They will repeat falsehoods so often that they become ingrained in the victim’s mind as unshakeable truths.

When this is done repeatedly to override what was truly experienced, it can leave an immense dent in the fabric of someone’s perceptions and ability to trust themselves. When used chronically to control a victim, it becomes a damaging aspect of psychological abuse, placing the survivor at risk for depression, anxiety, PTSD, suicidal ideation and even what is called by some therapists as “Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome” (Van der Kolk, 2016; Walker, 2013; WolfFord-Clevinger, 2017; Staik, 2017)." (continues)

Gaslighting in Conversations
What does gaslighting look like in day to day conversations? It usually involves some form of the following:

Malignant repetition of falsehoods

Minimizing the impact or severity of the abuse.


Projection and generalization – The gaslighter diverts the claim back to the victim, claiming that he or she is the one who “always” creates trouble, when in fact, it is the gaslighter who is perpetually creating chaos and refusing to validate the victim’s claims.

Withholding information and stonewalling – The abuser is unwilling to engage in the conversation at all and often shuts down the conversation any time a claim is made against him or her about their behavior.
Questioning their memory, emotional stability and/or competence – The abuser avoids accusations and conversations by questioning the victim’s memory or ability to comprehend the situation in an unbiased way.


Bringing in a third party/the triangulation maneuver. Triangulation is the act of bringing in another person into the dynamic of a toxic interaction.

Triangulation (in the context of gaslighting) can be used to confirm the abuser’s version of reality and shame you into believing that you truly are alone in your beliefs and perceptions.

Malignant narcissists are prone to recruiting what the survivor community refers to as “flying monkeys” to agree with their perspective. They may bring these people in physically to confirm their point of view (“Hey Sandra, what do you think? Isn’t Laura being paranoid?”), or even mention them in passing (“Even Sandra agreed with me that you’re being a bit paranoid, Laura”). (continues)
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

[BernardBlacksWineIcelolly]

Yes, I think the point is that woman has a specific meaning, both in science and law

To communicate effectively being clear about terms is important (so I am!)

[LimeKiwi]

Just wow, but apparently you don't do it.
OK then.
We're back to people gaslighting again for having a different viewpoint.
As well as accusing people of being gaslighters/abusers/TRAs.
Can't you see what you're doing?

[TirisfalPumpkin]

Just regarding the ‘trans rights’ thing - didn’t the sticky moderation approach thread used to say ‘trans rights/gender critical issues’?

It just says ‘trans rights’ now.

[DecomposingComposers]

Really interesting reading that post about gaslighting.

It explains very clearly what I experience on these threads.

Especially people denying having written what is right there and visible to all.

[TruthOnTrial]

Belonging to a scientifically defined group and wanting to align oneself with one are different things.

Ok, but different and confer different rights and protections

[LimeKiwi]

Indeed @DecomposingComposers

[TruthOnTrial]

Some are trying to stick to the topic and some are not - different

[Ereshkigal]

This may be picky, but I really dislike how its always termed 'trans rights'

Its not picky.
Its about centring and framing

Agree. FWR is about women's rights, not the demands of transactivists.

[Ereshkigal]

I guess that's a wrap.