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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman No2.

999 replies

happydappy2 · 16/06/2019 22:21

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

OP posts:
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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/06/2019 20:48

Why can't you discuss who should or should not be able to use women's spaces whilst using the term trans woman?

As has been repeatedly stated because the word transwomen tricks the brain into thinking of women rather than men.

Additionally why shouldn't we be able to correctly describe transwomen as male?

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 20:51

Maybe your leather trousers are too tight? They cut off the blood supply to your head

Grin Grin

That must be it lol

R0wantrees · 17/06/2019 20:53

Its unfortunate that some seemed determined to to take the thread down yet another cul de sac.

Using accurate language is important for girls & women's safety.

There are functional parallel when the sex-signifier male is replaced with woman in descriptors with Bara Kerr's experiment& conclusions about preferred/compelled pronouns.

(extract)
"If you do this experiment you may still decide to accept or use female pronouns for male people, perhaps a little wiser, but cognisant of their influence on you and others. That’s a choice you may make. At least now you understand that you may be voluntarily suppressing your own natural response. Your eyes are more open.

Maybe you’ll continue to mentally translate ‘preferred’ pronouns and names in your head back to reality, every time, as I do. We give ourselves the best chance to understand the reality of the situation before us. It becomes easier with practice. I want my instincts as intact as possible.

Maybe you shrug. You can live with this little phenomenon. Or it didn’t work for you, you don’t see it.

But please. Don’t judge so harshly those of us who refuse to submit, refuse to comply with preferred pronouns. There are good reasons why we might be doing that, for our own sakes, and for the sakes of others.

Pronouns are Rohypnol.
I want to be alert. I want others to be alert. I want people to see the real picture, and I want those instinctive reactions that we feel when something is wrong, to be un-blunted, un-dulled by this cheap but effective psychological trick. I feel like I owe this to myself, and I absolutely owe it to other women.

And more than anything, I owe this to girls. I don’t want to play even the tiniest part in grooming them to disregard their natural protective instincts. Those instincts are there for a reason. To keep them safe. They need those instincts intact, and sharp.

And that’s why I won’t use preferred pronouns." (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

FeministCat · 17/06/2019 20:54

*Why can't you discuss who should or should not be able to use women's spaces whilst using the term trans woman?i

Well, those who want to can. But why does that preclude who want to use other terms, like a male identifying as a woman from doing so? For many the entire problem with trans woman is it is still using the word woman, and so it is just another way of using language to disguise the issue.

Earlywalker · 17/06/2019 20:54

Why can't you discuss who should or should not be able to use women's spaces whilst using the term trans woman?

Would also like to know.

And the poster and anyone reading knows they were insinuating men in their comment. Just a shame we can’t have an intelligent debate without having certain individuals trying to discredit us and our opinions. It’s very telling.

PurpleCrowbar · 17/06/2019 20:55

Anyway, so a few posters think they would not choose to use phrases which explicitly reference maleness when referring to people born male but who think of themselves as women.

Others would like not to be censored for doing so.

Everybody agrees that policing other people's language is BAD so the OP has a credible point.

Everyone agreed, chaps?

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 20:55

As has been repeatedly stated because the word transwomen tricks the brain into thinking of women rather than men.

I think everyone on this board understands what trans woman means.

Additionally why shouldn't we be able to correctly describe transwomen as male?

There are many times in life that I could use words that would be entirely factual but also very hurtful. If we value factual over everything else why limit it only to trans women? Why not start describing people by body size or IQ or nose size...

That would all be factual.

happydappy2 · 17/06/2019 20:55

Just for the record, last time I said chaps, was it this thread or the previous one? As soon as certain posters incorrectly accused me of calling them men, I did clarify that chaps is gender neutral........therefore the 2nd time I referenced chaps, it was again meant as gender neutral, but you guys go on and read into that what you will.

I see the keyboard warriors are having so much fun, at the expense of women being able to accurately describe men, which is what this whole topic is about. It’s been very illuminating.

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 20:56

purple

Yep

And dont chap me Grin

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 20:58

Its unfortunate that some seemed determined to to take the thread down yet another cul de sac.

Um... that would be the posters repeatedly saying man, chaps, blokes or whatever not us.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/06/2019 20:58

I think everyone on this board understands what trans woman means.

That's pretty excluding for people who may be lurking or new to the board.

There are many times in life that I could use words that would be entirely factual but also very hurtful. If we value factual over everything else why limit it only to trans women? Why not start describing people by body size or IQ or nose size...

I am obese. If someone said that to me I would be hurt, and embarrassed. But it's still correct, still the truth, and people should always be allowed to speak the truth.

PurpleCrowbar · 17/06/2019 20:59

Rufus sorry old bean Wink

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 20:59

Just a shame we can’t have an intelligent debate without having certain individuals trying to discredit us and our opinions. It’s very telling.

I agree

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 21:00

Old!!!!

Cheeky

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 21:01

happydappy2

Yep. You used chaps on the last thread and git the same reaction. So you then decide to do it again on this thread. Some might say thats being goady huh?

In what universe is chaps a generic term? The dictionary makes it quite clear that it is used to describe men and boys (and we all know how important dictionary definitions are)

FeministCat · 17/06/2019 21:01

Maybe this is my 80s and 90s youth showing, or my location, but I used to use “dude” and “guys” all the time for for girls and women, and other girls and women used it on me and so on. Indeed my best friend in junior high/high school often called each “dude”. Also used commonly to say things like “dude, that’s harsh” to someone whatever their sex.

Still do use “guys” a lot when talking to a group even if all women as in “hey, you guys, want to go out after work for a drink?” I like it much better than saying “ladies” or something.

happydappy2 · 17/06/2019 21:02

So this has been going on since Friday evening..........is this normal?

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 17/06/2019 21:03

Personally I’m finding the vague smell of BS quite overwhelming

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 21:04

Nothing about this thread is normal

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 21:04

I am obese. If someone said that to me I would be hurt, and embarrassed. But it's still correct, still the truth, and people should always be allowed to speak the truth.

I pretty sure that if people repeatedly referred to your size and you continued to feel hurt and embarrassed then your life would become miserable very quickly. At what point does the embarrassment get too much and you stop going out for example? Do you think people still have the right to state fact?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 21:05

I use dude cos its funny

Dont use guys...as it pisses me off, as ive said

Do use mate, dont use chaps...though dh does for work colleagues

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/06/2019 21:05

Do you think people still have the right to state fact?

Yes.

DecomposingComposers · 17/06/2019 21:06

FeministCat

That's very interesting.

But the term used here was "chaps". How many times does your group of female friends refer to each other as chaps?

LimeKiwi · 17/06/2019 21:07

EarlyWalker, limekiwi If you want to use to terms transwomen / transmen no one is stopping you and no one wants to stop you. Not everyone wants to use the terms.Why are you so invested in controlling other people's speech

Just seen this. I'm not. I've repeatedly said say what you like.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/06/2019 21:07

Oh someone i know uses peeps...what the fuck!