Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

[Throckmorton]

I don't get it. Why are so many women falling over themselves to be ok with males taking women's places in sport, in awards (working mum of the year FFS!), all over the shop? All over the NSPCC stuff for eg, it's women on twitter posting how transphobic every one is. I guess what I'm saying is what is making turkeys vote for Christmas? If I see one more TWAW/cis-women-are-transphobic meme on Facebook from otherwise intelligent women I'm going to bloody scream.

There was a time when POC weren't allowed to compete against white folk in sports, and there's no doubt that certain ethnicities are more naturally gifted in certain sports (e.g. sprinting). It's also the case that black males generally have higher testosterone than white males. This said, one could argue that white males should have their own sprinting class.

I'm not saying for a second that it's directly comparable but I can see how some of the arguments cross over a bit as previously mentioned on here and it's here that I struggle with the class analysis aspect sometimes, despite my kneejerk reaction being that the two sexes shouldn't be combined.

Intuitively, self ID seems like a terrible idea to me, but I suppose what I'm getting at is the question of at what point do we accept certain protected groups and castigate others in the instance that both demonstrate statistically higher levels of violent crime?

I know what my gut feeling tells me but it's so hard when I start trying to draw comparisons. I don't think TW are women but I also find it really hard to view them as stereotypical men.

@LadyBumclock I suspect, though I can't be sure, that if a ruffian clocks a trans man as female , and that trans man is in an exclusively male space like some backstreet toilet somewhere, the trans man is likely to be raped- for being female

Yes totally. As the transman Brandon Teena, who the film Boys Don't Cry was about, was raped. So on average, as per genetic biology, men are more of a risk to transmen (i.e. women) than vice versa.

But in the situation where men are not really paying attention or are not interested in the issue as such, they are less likely to care about what transmen might mean for them.

There's also the kind of sexist point about men not noticing. IME men are far far less likely to notice what other people look like and the details of their appearance than women are. Whether that's a product of social conditioning I don't know. Added to that, women are probably more likely to be sensitive to the presence of a male body in their space, going by things like size and voice and maybe also things like sense of smell, because we are used to being aware of that because of the risk.

"My intimate spaces" sounded like I don't want them in my knickers, which I don't , as I am a lesbian. But what I meant was "private spaces reserved for women"

There was a time when POC weren't allowed to compete against white folk in sports, and there's no doubt that certain ethnicities are more naturally gifted in certain sports (e.g. sprinting). It's also the case that black males generally have higher testosterone than white males. This said, one could argue that white males should have their own sprinting class.

The differences aren't nearly as big as the difference between sexes. Competition is still possible. If it were clear that the Men's 1500 had clearly split into two different races, the race would be broken down into categories as it is for other events like boxing, but that doesn't happen so elite men compete in one race.

I'm not saying for a second that it's directly comparable but I can see how some of the arguments cross over a bit as previously mentioned on here and it's here that I struggle with the class analysis aspect sometimes, despite my kneejerk reaction being that the two sexes shouldn't be combined.

I think the proof is in the pudding a little. If sex is really not that important in terms of sport, people would be agitating for getting rid of sex based sports. Yet no one is, because really everyone understands why they are divided.

Ethnicity would be very difficult to control in sports in terms of divisions. It's not discreet enough. But you do have some sports with divisions and you could have others if people wanted to. It might be interesting to have short basketball.

Are you actually suggesting that being trans is some sort of fun hobby for poorly traveled people whose privilege insulates them from serious adversity? I don’t think you’re being intentionally ironic but this makes no sense. Of course people of relative privilege in western society have more freedom to be openly trans than those living with poverty and fear. Substitute the word “gay” for “trans” and it remains true. But it doesn’t logically follow that being trans, or gay, is just a trendy experiment.

No, I don't think it's a hobby. I think they are dead serious. But I do think it's a passing trend. I've seen at least two societal youth trends in which the participants were dead serious, put their life and soul into it, thought it was forever -- and a few years later it was all gone. I was part of one of those trends. I was convinced I'd never change. I did.

The difference is that in those cases, there was no permanent damage done, no bodily amendments made that could mean health issues for the rest of their. lives.

For that reason, I cited life experience in my post about being patronising; I'm not criticising their privilege per se, which they can't help, but their lack of life experience which disqualifies them from truly understanding the human situation. I too am privileged, but living with and among those faced with devastating problems has given me a vital perspective. It's really hard to have your heard bleed for someone who is in a flap over being misgendered, when you have seen suffering from truly devastating problems. There's a thread I posted some time back about female genital mutilation, with someone sating the real problem is cissexism. I men, get real! That's what I mean.

You don't have to have lived through serious adversity yourself in order to understand that physical problems give you a grounding in reality that in my eyes at least is totally lacking in the people who uphold this particular societal trend. Brave and stunning, my left foot!

You don't have to be starving to know that a healthy body of either sex is the most wonderful possession, and to deliberately interfere with a body's functioning to achieve an impossible goal is a fool's errand. I'm sorry, but I can't find another word for it.

It is impossible to change sex. I sympathise with anyone who is so seriously uncomfortable in their body that they are willing to take such risks, but I fear they are only making things worse, because the happiness they really seek will remain as elusive as ever. Deep inside they know that they have not really changed sex. They know that there IS a binary that can't be changed. They know that nobody really sees them as the opposite sex; they're just being polite.
The initial euphoria will fade away; the problems they once had will give way to other, different, more serious ones. Health problems, dependency on drugs, relationship problems, and the knowledge that it still hasn't "worked" -- that will follow them for a long, long time, and there will be nothing they can do about it.It's tragic. For those genuinely miserable with their body, I think a better solution would be therapy.

Yes I have heard of the Maslow pyramid; in fact it played a part of my final dissertation and I practiced a therapy based on it for many years.

I personally don't believe in gender. All of my "femaleness" comes from my biology and the experiences granted me by a female body. Gender doesn't exist apart from sex. You can pretend to "change" from one to the other but you will end up equally unhappy in the pretend result. That's my opinion, based on the fact that we cannot change sex.

Sorry -- the last post was a little disjointed. I mainly wanted to answer the OP question about female trans-allies; the perplexing why of it. Somehow I let myself be lured into talking about the act of transitioning itself, which was not the topic under discussion.

Short basketball. 😂 That's a great idea. Would they have to lower the hoop though?

Great posts lamaha. I totally agree about the trends and I've seen them come and go too.