Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

[Throckmorton]

I don't get it. Why are so many women falling over themselves to be ok with males taking women's places in sport, in awards (working mum of the year FFS!), all over the shop? All over the NSPCC stuff for eg, it's women on twitter posting how transphobic every one is. I guess what I'm saying is what is making turkeys vote for Christmas? If I see one more TWAW/cis-women-are-transphobic meme on Facebook from otherwise intelligent women I'm going to bloody scream.

Does anyone else worry about admitting your thoughts to friends in real life, in case they all decide you're a transphobe and hate you?

I don't worry about it. If I lose a friend about it, then that's the friend's loss.

I think that a lot of them don't really understand what's happening

Yes, I totally agree. I only found out about all this from being on MN - if I hadn't been here, I doubt I would have noticed what was happening.

It makes my blood boil, too. Handmaidens of the patriarchy.

I think it’s what some women have always done; align themselves with a dominant power in the hope that will mean safety. Women have always been set to police other women; it’s the patriarchy’s way of controlling women without having to get its hands dirty.

But I also think gas-lighting around the meaning of “woman”, and women’s inferior position in most societies, has blurred our ability to claim our womanhood.

Men have done such a good job of convincing women that their ersatz version of womanhood is the real deal, that women are convinced that male reality is their reality.

Jacky, it’s not just young women. Have seen plenty of time middle age and older women say the same things.

I know a woman like this... she's 45 and a mother to a son she's raising to believe into all this cobblers

Her son hit my daughter and my husband told him firmly that boys don't hit girls, it's cowardly

The mother objected to this on the grounds that she doesn't impose gender roles on her son

Now I'm not saying that girls should be raised to be delicate flowers. I do kickboxing! But men have to realise that women are not their physical equals and that they can't use them as punching bags ffs.

Not their physical equals in a fighting / raw power sense at any rate.

I am not ok with it in sports. Women are physically different. But I do consider a trans person a woman and I don't feel like I am losing anything if I share a bathroom with a trans person.

“Her son hit my daughter and my husband told him firmly that boys don't hit girls, it's cowardly

The mother objected to this on the grounds that she doesn't impose gender roles on her son confused”

Well, i’d object to that as well. After i’d told my son off for hitting, of course.

But I do consider a trans person a woman and I don't feel like I am losing anything if I share a bathroom with a trans person.

It’s not about being trans, it’s about being male. It’s about allowing adult men access to spaces which are provided to women and girls to give them a measure of privacy and safety.

Away from men.

It’s estimated that 41% of transwomen in prison are sex offenders. That is twice the percentage of male prisoners.

That offers no confidence that allowing transwomen into female spaces will do anything but increase the risk to women.

Of course you would.

If you really want an honest answer, I support trans rights because I know a few M-to-F trans people and I honestly don’t think of them as men. So I don’t see it as invading women’s spaces, simple as that. Being trans has not made their lives easy. They are the last people who would cause trouble and in some cases you wouldn’t even know that they are in “your” spaces because they’ve transitioned so thoroughly.. I’m not going to pile on to the shit these people have already gotten by refusing to acknowledge their true selves — I don’t think it’s up to us to take that control from them.

If you want to exclude trans women from a particular space how do you propose to figure out exactly who is trans? Because trust me there are many that look, sound, and present exactly as women do. There are also women who appear more masculine. Unless you want all women to carry their birth certificates around and present them on demand—which sounds a bit too Handmaid’s Tale for my tastes—all you are really doing us discriminating against those transwomen who for various reasons aren’t able to pass as well as others.

Btw I’m not going to get into an argument here. You asked a question and I gave an honest response. I’m sure I will he shouted down any moment and when that happens I will leave the thread. I just don’t have headspace for debating on a Saturday morning.

No bloody idea. It’s interesting the friends I’ve lost on Facebook since I became openly gender critical are either male and gay or female and ‘cool’. Like the cool wives that are ok with porn.

I do wonder how long it will take them to wake up, interestingly 2 of them have young daughters.

answer, I support trans rights because I know a few M-to-F trans people and I honestly don’t think of them as men

Unfortunately you can’t write legislation and policy based on the handful of transwomen you know who I’m sure are absolutely lovely.

You need to look at the bigger picture and say, if we create these laws who will abuse them? What are the consequences? In other words a risk/impact assessment.

You don’t write laws based on Tracy 2 doors down from your mum who is a delight and just trying to live their life the best way they know. You need to consider Dave the creepy weirdo you wouldn’t leave your kids alone with who will be rubbing his hands (and other bits) together at the relaxing of safeguarding legislation.

maybe the Internet does not represent people's reality and on the whole people are far more tolerant and excepting of others, and show understanding of others lived experience when faced with it.

This is an entire thread of slagging off other women! One PP even called women with a different opinion to her as ‘a bit thick’ ! How is this feminism?! It isn’t, it’s just mumsnet using any excuse to discriminate against trans people under the guise of ‘worrying about women’s spaces’ as usual.

I don't know anyone who's okay with this irl and I know an awful lot of people. I sometimes wonder if a lot of it is just public virtue signalling and trying to be the wokest.

IndistinctRadioChatter humans have never needed to check birth certificates to tell women from men. The basic fact is males shouldn't be going in female spaces and I don't care how nice your mate is, they can't come in. I have nice mates too and I wouldn't dream of overriding other women's boundaries by bringing them into female-only spaces - but then the idea of going in wouldn't even cross their minds anyway.

The reason men are excluded from some women’s spaces isn't because my lovely husband, brother, male friends, etc are a risk to women. It is because men as a sex class are a proven risk to women, and unfortunately we can’t tell the good ones from the wronguns simply by looking at them.

Therefore we exclude them all, no matter their presentation or how they “feel”. To do otherwise opens a door to abusive men, who as we know will go to great lengths (eg training as priests) to access vulnerable people.

Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces

Because the mantra "Transwoman are women" is a genius propaganda tool.

You just need to get women to accept that one anti-science sentence and women & girls give up their right to say no to men taking their places and being in their spaces.

"Women are physically different. But I do consider a trans person a woman"

I think we need to start teaching formal logic at schools.

cherryblossomgin well that's nice for you but you don't get to decide that for other women and girls. You don't get to hand over their rights. Can you not see the problem here?

Oh and I also think the standard of education has plummeted, despite all the bullshit degrees around. I am constantly taken aback at university grads who cannot think critically or string an argument together. And who don't read.

Indistinct do you consider there to be a problem in changing rooms? I know of plenty of changing rooms where there are no cubicles. If someone has surgically transitioned, of course there is no problem with them being there. But if we change the rules to say anyone who says they are a woman is considered as a woman we let the creepy men claiming to be women by putting on a dress but who have absolutely no desire to transition medically or surgically in, with their penises, to share spaces with women and girls. We wouldn't be able to challenge them. Is that right?

I have no problem with how people want to dress or live, as long as it doesn't impact on my right to feel safe.

With winning awards or being in posts for women, females have life experiences based on their biology. I don't think someone who has not experienced that talks for women. They have a very different life experience. It doesnt make their life experience invalid to say they shouldn't be seen as women. Many transwomen, I'm sure, go through a lot which means they are experts able to talk about being transwomen.

On sports the issues are obvious and I'm not going into them.

I'm personally not an expert but also don't get all 'scared' of sharing spaces with men. I'm not conditioned to think of all men as the enemy. That is just as unhealthy I think. I couldn't care less.

My daughter, however, has very strong feelings about this (she is 14) and will argue the toss about the rights of trans people. Literally every day. She believes trans people should be able to take part in sports as their current gender as long as they are physically transitioning. She hasn't been gaslighted or raised in a misogynistic environment. I don't think her view point is unhealthy in this day and age. Maybe there should be a minimum of time they have been living as their new gender.