Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

[Throckmorton]

I don't get it. Why are so many women falling over themselves to be ok with males taking women's places in sport, in awards (working mum of the year FFS!), all over the shop? All over the NSPCC stuff for eg, it's women on twitter posting how transphobic every one is. I guess what I'm saying is what is making turkeys vote for Christmas? If I see one more TWAW/cis-women-are-transphobic meme on Facebook from otherwise intelligent women I'm going to bloody scream.

twicemummy
The very idea that women are nothing more than a fuckhole and that a male can define what a woman is, is misogynistic. The very concept suggests that women don't exist in their own right, but only as an abstract male definition

But there isn't a definition any more is there? Just a feeling in a man's head.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

I do see why "large plain girl" comes with its own problems but OTOH I know what Becky meant and she did put it in quotes. It is how that girl would be perceived by those who have a fixed idea of how girls should look and a large part of society in general.

I was that girl too. I was a "tomboy", tall, chunky, short hair. (I also have autism traits/possibly mild ASD although that wasn't known at the time.) I distinctly remember aged about 8 or 9 thinking that I would prefer to be a boy. Totally unsurprisingly as how I looked and acted made me feel excluded from "girlhood" and that I couldn't cut it as a girl, while boys were "allowed" to be like me. I was also routinely assumed to be gay though I'm not.

Thank fuck the trans trend was not a thing then or I might well have had it forced on me. What actually happened was I discovered feminism, learned how to be my own kind of girl/woman and got on with my life on my own terms, with the help of some wonderful books and older women friends/teachers. That's how it should be IMO.

A few years ago I met another girl, the daughter of a friend, who was similar and feeling very awkward at 13. She told me about having size 8 feet and feeling huge and I tried to be supportive and told her I was the same and it didn't matter and she was great as she was etc.

Fast forward a few years and she's now identifying as non-binary. Her choice but I partly put that down to the pressure on women to fit in to a traditionally feminine, pretty mould or else not be seen as proper women.

I was that "large plain girl". My school won the International Bullying Trophy 6 years in a row - and as a result I was ridiculed for my appearance because I didn't fit the accepted narrative.

But back then there was not this trend.

Had there been, it might've seemed like an easy way out : "look! I'm not a big plain girl, I'm a stunning and brave boy" - and then everyone would've loved me as a boy.

(My mother probably would've loved it too - all that attention on her )

So yeh... I know what it's like to be the "big plain girl" and know that people loathe me based upon my physical appearance and how I wished I could do anything to fit in and not face that ridicule. I read She-Devil and wished I could have all that surgery so I could be accepted.

I've also noticed a "physical similiarities" amongst the mothers of trans kids who persue medical treatment... but that would probably make you explode if I were to outline them!

@IndistinctRadioChatter I think it's nonsense to accuse someone of internalized misogyny because they said "plain big girl". It was a not a value judgement of the girl, it was a recognition that we are all held to ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards and teenage girls especially are vulnerable and sensitive. It can go either way- either they desperately want cosmetic surgery to beautify themselves or make themselves slimmer ( I desperately wanted breast implants at 15) OR they go the trans route and try to identify out of the objectification and oppression.

It was a not a value judgement of the girl, it was a recognition that we are all held to ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards and teenage girls especially are vulnerable and sensitive. It can go either way- either they desperately want cosmetic surgery to beautify themselves or make themselves slimmer ( I desperately wanted breast implants at 15) OR they go the trans route and try to identify out of the objectification and oppression

Or they can be ignored as the vast majority of the population do, as can easily be demonstrated by looking around you in any public place.

I think the problem you (general you radical feminists) have in getting people to see your point of view is , certainly for me, what seems like huge exaggeration. It's all so black and white; indeed everything is so black and white- like the comment above. We are not all held to "ridiculously high and unattainable beauty standards". Magazines and adverts show beautiful people- in real life we know that standard of beauty isn't achievable.

On trans issues one comment a while back struck me. A poster said her husband never noticed trans women, but she did. I live in a small city, I'm in London on average once a month and most of my holidays are European city breaks. I never notice either.

In my home city 2 businesses I deal with regularly have a trans woman employee; friends have a ftm child and I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel. In London beyond once sharing a lift in a hotel with a trans woman I have not been aware of any trans persons.

On toilets my preference is floor to ceiling single occupancy individual rooms. I don't care enough about that to campaign for them but happy with that set- up if that is what is available.

It seems to me that MN highlights the most obnoxious and repellent behaviour which is then put forward as a threat to all women and personally from my own experience there seems a big credibility gap.

I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel
Do you mean 'the attempted physical attack on Julie Bindel'?

Teenagers and young people quite often are very pro-trans as theyve been brought up in ultra individualist , narcissistic society, and also often just havent seen enough male bullshit yet.

aliasundercover

I was, oddly, a witness to the verbal attack by a trans woman on Julie Bindel
Do you mean 'the attempted physical attack on Julie Bindel'?

I saw and heard someone shouting and swearing at Julie Bindel.

You know what I wish we could change? The demarcations “pro trans” and “anti trans”.

I consider myself extremely pro trans. The fact that I believe that there are practical issues that remain to be resolved does not make me anti trans. One of the ways that activists try to shut.peopke like me up is by saying that any recignition of any concern at all is just a smoke screen.

One of the ways that activists try to shut.peopke like me up is by saying that any recignition of any concern at all is just a smoke screen

That goes both ways. Way back in the dawn of this I took agin to Magdalen Berns because of various response videos she made about Blaire White. Now I'm sure it was all water off a duck's back to White and she would neither need nor ask for defenders but I certainly did not warm to Berns or her view.

Bizarrely of course White agrees with you (general radical feminist "you") on many trans related issues.

You know what I wish we could change? The demarcations “pro trans” and “anti trans”.

Definitely agree with this. Not wishing to give away womens rights is 'anti trans'. Thinking about women in any situation is 'anti trans'. Its just..ridiculous. I am not anti trans, I just think sex is a real thing and that in a couple of areas in life, it matters.

We can't get rid of the anti-trans idea because it's the basis of all their arguments. To them we aren't being pro-women because TWAW. Women's rights are trans' rights blah blah blah.

“Way back in the dawn of this I took agin to Magdalen Berns because of various response videos she made about Blaire White.”

Could you say more?

Bertrand, I'm not going to trawl though them but my recollection is that the tone was very sneery and dismissive of White largely because of the way she looks (ultra- feminine, long hair, hair flicking) and that White is right- wing.

White has often said that she is anti-feminist- but she is anti-social justice warrior in general. For her feminism is simply part of social justice snowflakery.

On the appearance issue, well yes, no-one could deny White looks ultra- feminine and hair flicky- but a quick look at any YouTube style or beauty channel will find plenty of natal women exactly like her, so why attack White on that point?

On the political aspect - we are now in a position that out- spoken, right wing, libertarians are the ones standing up for free speech.

Summary, I didn't find Berns made substantive points beyond her obvious dislike of White.

I was the small, plain, flat-chested girl, with hands like 'a road-digging navvy' (my dad's words to me as a teen) - I've been a tomboy, a 'woman's man' a 'handmaiden' (before I had heard of the term or had any understanding of it) and a lost soul. Once you've seen through the eyes of feminism, led by brave souls showing the way, there's no turning back, but their voices are so easily drowned out by the patriarchy and the supports of it that many people just cannot see that view point at all.

ops I meant 'a man's woman' not the reverse

@LassOfFyvie I don't think radfems really care about getting people to see their point of view. We can't anyway. Most people accidentally fall into radical feminism when searching for answers and when your eyes have been opened there's no going back.

In fact the interesting thing is that trans activists are accidentally creating a radical feminist army. Women go along with the trans ideology until they peak trans over something ridiculous that was said ( periods are transphobic , for example), or they get called a TERF for pointing out some biological fact. So they wonder "what is a TERF?" So they do a bit of online research, wondering who these TERFS are, and find radical feminism and they think fuck me these people are talking sense. That's literally how radical feminists are made. We just keep ourselves to ourselves and have little chats between ourselves and people seek us out

I would also say it's a bit weird trying to tell radical feminists we're wrong. The whole world tells us we're wrong. Mainstream newspapers call us hateful bigot TERFS who should die in a fire. We get no platformed, ignored, sacked from jobs and even physically attacked just for our political views. Radfems have thought through our politics very very carefully. We are very used to mainstream people's opinions because those opinions are literally everywhere and dominate the media.

I didn't tell you ("you" being radical feminists) that you were wrong. I gave you my opinion - but even if I had said you were wrong, what special exclusion from criticism should radical feminism get from any other philosophy?

In any case the premise of the thread is why is your message not getting across ? (albeit couched in more loaded terms). It's a "bit weird" then to criticise me for replying to the question.

@LassOfFyvie Are you messing? "Special exclusion from criticism"
Radical feminists are reviled for holding the views we do. But all of our theories stand up to scrutiny.
Whereas trans ideology is off bounds for criticism. It simply shuts down debate and tries to get gender critical feminists ( TERFS) driven off the internet. We are seeing some some very sinister stuff being related to trans ideology , specifically the transing of children finally being reported in the Times. But radfems have been trying to shine a light on it for decades. It is the trans lobby that is above scrutiny, not radical feminism. It's a patriarchal reversal to say otherwise

I’d say it’s because they’re brainwashed and worried about being accused of being nasty and prejudiced. It’s already being likened to gay rights and activism; unsurprisingly as is under the LGBT umbrella and Stonewall are a key player.

I also do think it’s a ‘women’ thing and trying not to be sexist, women ‘in general’, not all (I hate why I have to even write a disclaimer about something I don’t think is particularly controversial), are known as the nicer and fairer sex and less willing to offend. It’s mainly women who get labelled transphobes due to a combination of mysogny but also because they are less comfortable being accused. I’m seriously not bothered to be called that as man. These people are loons so why should I care? I’d just laugh

@Caucho yes we are indeed less comfortable with being accused of transphobia because hidden behind the accusation of "TERF!" Or "transphobe!" is the threat of male violence. And trans women are very vocal online about wanting to "fuck up some TERFS" or " kill all TERFS".
These are very overt death threats from men towards women who disagree with them.

Rightly or wrongly, Women do take online death threats from men seriously, which is why I'm guessing women want to distance themselves from radical feminism

twicemummy
@LassOfFyvieAre you messing? "Special exclusion from criticism"
Radical feminists arereviledfor holding the views we do. But all of our theories stand up to scrutiny

You stated it was "a bit weird trying to tell radical feminists they are wrong". Why is that a "bit weird" (not that I was even doing so) unless you think radical feminism should not be subject to scrutiny?

This forum is not an exclusive radical feminist forum. The premise of this thread was to ask why other women are not fully onside with you. I answered it.

I think some of the younger women (although not exclusively the young) have it in their heads that feminism can take its foot off the accelerator for a while and that in order for continued progress, feminism needs to be seen as reasonable and socially acceptable. A softer approach. An approach that men won't feel threatened by.

Then you have the social pressure elements, of course.