Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

[Throckmorton]

I don't get it. Why are so many women falling over themselves to be ok with males taking women's places in sport, in awards (working mum of the year FFS!), all over the shop? All over the NSPCC stuff for eg, it's women on twitter posting how transphobic every one is. I guess what I'm saying is what is making turkeys vote for Christmas? If I see one more TWAW/cis-women-are-transphobic meme on Facebook from otherwise intelligent women I'm going to bloody scream.

I’m in a lot of social media groups where I’m on the older end, being in my mid-30s. Every single group I’m in outright and unquestionably bans anybody who says anything that could be perceived as remotely negative towards transgender people. Therefore, in order to participate, you have to toe the line. Younger people are increasingly physically isolated, and increasingly spending more time online. For a lot of people, these are the groups they go to for both socialisation and support. So to be banned from them is often an awful thought. I think it’s an insidious way of brainwashing younger people, if I’m honest.

On the other hand, I only really learnt that trans was really a thing through being in these groups. And only really started to question it when I saw posts such as ‘I’m a trans woman having my period, how do I deal with this?’

So I would posit that the younger generation suffer from both a degree or brainwashing, and also that because they’re younger they’ve not had to deal with a lot of the women’s issues that come with time.

And for older women - I simply think a lot of us aren’t aware, certainly of the impact that this is all having, until it actually does impact us. By which point it’ll probably be too late.

"I'm not conditioned to think of all men as the enemy"

Oh my god WELL DONE YOU. You incredible creature! You deserve an award for managing not to get raped, bullied or beaten up by men and then being scared of them, when so many others have failed! What an amazing virtuous leader you are

I’m not going to pile on to the shit these people have already gotten by refusing to acknowledge their true selves

Oops - you’ve already been brainwashed!! What do you mean, ‘true selves’? You must be subscribing to that born in the wrong body stuff. But is it ‘born in the wrong body’ or ‘has got a major mental health issue based around their gender, often because of society’s ridiculous expectations’? How can you be born in the wrong body? You’re born in the the body you’ve got. Everything else is social stuff.

Gay conversion therapy is rightly looked down upon as a bad thing. So why are we so happy to accept chopping off your bits as acceptable? Converting man to woman when it is not actually physically possible?

I’m not going to pile on to the shit these people have already gotten by refusing to acknowledge their true selves

Thats fine to be nice to one group.

But its only part of the picture.

There is an impact on others that needs to be acknowledged.

And its about balancing 'the shit that people have to deal with' of everyone on society.

pachyderm That is just my opinion, I am not making that decision for anyone else. Everyone's life experience is different. I just prefer to be inclusive and not gate keep.

Surely, even you have some gates you would like to keep?

And you are making decisions for others by defining 'inclusivity' in this rather fuzzy way.

Ever lock your doors at night? Fascist.

Thank you to the women who have responded here, I believe in good faith, to the question. Yes, you will probably get some push back, but I'm genuinely pleased you've responded.

What I'm getting from your responses is a very hopeful tone, and a desire to be kind, especially to people you know. I do respect that as a choice to an extent.

I don't share it, because I think it's ultimately naive and very high handed with the boundaries of other women, but I just wanted to sound a note of thanks for responding even if I profoundly disagree.

Of course I lock my doors 🙄. I think that some spaces should be exclusive like womans shelters and prisons shouldn't be mixed. Maybe a trans wing and obviously sports.

I also see and value the good intentions. But are you really helping someone when you're lying to them?

I’m going to respond here but I have to caveat it by saying that it is incredibly infantilising and patronising to label anyone who disagrees with you as a gaslit handmaiden.

I respect your stance of thinking the baseline for society should be separating people by their genitals. I don’t agree, but I don’t think that in itself is transphobic. I have read many, many, resources often posted on here by GC people, followed people on both sides of the argument on twitter, researched the issue deeply and I myself am a rape victim. I agree there is a conversation to be had around prisons, and that there are problematic trans people (Yaniv etc).

However. I don’t appreciate being told that because I’ve been raped I must inherently believe penises should be kept away from me. I don’t believe my genitalia is the foundation of what makes me a woman. I recognise it’s a reason why the female sex is oppressed, but my preferred solution to this would be an entirely unisex society where we stop sexualising bodies in what, to me, is a throwback to Victorian prudishness, and work towards equality on not just a social level but a bodily level. I’m not saying cubicles should be removed and we should all parade naked - of course there should still be privacy. But I don’t think it’s healthy to go around being inherently scared of penises. We should all learn to share spaces together, as equals. Gender, and by extension, womanhood and manhood, are social constructs that have no place in modern society. They oppress everyone (and yes, I would like to see more equal parenting, free childcare and child-rearing seen as a parents joint job, not just a woman’s).

I’ve seen people on here say that they themselves have never ‘felt’ like a woman therefore the trans experience must not be real. That’s like saying you’ve never felt like a lesbian or a French person - just because you yourself haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Who are we to say that others don’t deeply and viscerally feel their physical sex isn’t what it’s meant to be? I also don’t consider trans women men - as I’ve explained I don’t think biology is the starting point we should be working from, and I don’t believe someone growing up with these feelings will have the same experience as man who is happy to be a man. They will grow up/live as a trans person, and that in itself comes with its own issues.

I think you’re perfectly within your rights to believe people should be separated by biological sex. I don’t agree, and I don’t think you can expect society to always agree with you. I would like to see the focus shift away from it because it shouldn’t be what defines us. Bodies are not inherently sexual or dangerous things, and accepting them and sharing spaces I believe is the way to true parity.

I’ve thought out my position very carefully. I am not a gaslit handmaiden. I’ve read and researched and discussed and debated a lot. You can disagree with me but don’t patronise me.

Also, why are so many men ok with men taking women's spaces???

That's easy. It gets these annoying people out of THEIR spaces.

I think that's a fair explanation of your position that you disagree with separating by biological sex dodge. I think you've mischaraterized a few things there, and ultimately, while I'm interested in your personal reasoning, neither of us has the right to tell women with stricter boundaries than ourselves that they cannot have them.

dodgeball we would all love a utopia where people are kind and respectful to each other. Who wouldn't? I respect transpeople's right to live how they want to but back in reality, even if it's a small percentage of the population, there are men who don't fit into that lovely world and who will do what they can to get to and harm women. We need to account for that.

Indeed Floral which is why I said I respect people’s right to think that. I’m glad you’re willing to have a reasonable discussion about this as it is maddening to see insults being thrown around when actually some people have carefully considered their position. If I’ve mischaracterised anything that’s not intentional, I actually would welcome a reasonable debate about this without name calling from either side, and I should also have mentioned that I understand some people’s boundaries/stance may be informed by trauma that’s had a far more profound effect on them than mine did to me, and I think it is reductive to say the least to call those people bigots.

However I do have an issue with the insinuation that sometimes pops up that there is an inherent threat from male-bodied people, ie trans people, being in toilets or changing rooms etc. To me that’s like saying all black people carry a knife. You can recognise that crimes are committed by people from a certain demographic without tarring them all with the same brush imo.

I think that's the damaging claim that gets thrown about but I don't actually see being said, dodgeball. Yes, very few, genuinely transphobic people might say transpeople are a threat. The vast majority are saying men will pose as trans to enter women's spaces. That is entirely different.

Respectful debate is always good, dodgeball.

I disagree with you because of some basic sociological facts. The vast majority of sexual crime is committed by males (98%) as is the majority of violent crime. Men as a group have physical attributes that give them an advantage in physical confrontations. Biology is not destiny but for whatever reason sex categories seem to be linked to observable behaviour. These statistics are often obscured because they make men look bad. That is sexism.

We actually don't live in a sex-segregated society. I don't think most people in the UK would want that. Personally, I'm relaxed with nudity and have some lovely male friends that I would share intimate spaces with in a non-sexual way. I agree that we should try and always see the human being first. But I also think that nobody can force anybody else to deny reality so that another person can have validation. I actually think that's cruel to everyone involved.

Socialisation. Gaslighting. Fear. Indoctrination. Not seeing the bigger picture. Occasionally, being a quisling.

Ok dodge, I have a little time before I go out this afternoon, and honestly, I am never especially happy with the polarisation around this. I am more than happy to have a civilised discussion in good faith.

As a fellow rape and abuse survivor, I can certainly understand that there are different responses to trauma and its unhelpful to generalize. But I would always say that the person who is deeply affected by something to the point they have stricter boundaries would always be the baseline, rather than the person who has the looser boundaries if that makes sense.

With respect to safeguarding, which is essentially what the argument for sex segregation in specific circumstances is based on, it's important to remember that it is not about individuals. We employ class analysis - so we look at the stats about specific groups and assess the potential risks based on that.

Men being excluded from some spaces for women is based on the stats which show men as a class are a risk to women's safety - not that every man is an abuser, just that any man could be, so we exclude them to reduce risk.

When it comes to trans people who identify as female but are, in fact, male, nothing actually occurs in the identity of 'trans' to take that person out of the class of 'male', so there is no coherent reason to assume they are any different to any other normal, pleasant male who we exclude simply because of safeguarding protocol.

I hope I'm not coming over as patronising- I'm aware that these can be complicated concepts, especially with the language restrictions here.

"She believes trans people should be able to take part in sports as their current gender as long as they are physically transitioning."

How many transpeople actually physically transition - very few.
I am sure that if your daughter was competing at a high level at any sport, she would quickly see the advantages a male bodied person would have in comparison to her.
There are very clear and sensible reasons why sports should be separated by sex and not gender ID.

Wow, this threat took off! Thanks everyone for their views.

Some random thoughts of mine. No, I don't personally have a problem with my MtF relative using the women's loos, BUT, allowing males to use women's loos allows all the nasty rapey pervert men an easy in to women's spaces (women are more at risk in mixed sex toilets and single sex ones), plus allowing even my nice MtF relative in means that many women are excluded because there is now a male in their space (eg some muslims, orthodox jews, trauma victims) so unfortunately we need to put the rights of the many (women) ahead of the rights of the few (my nice MtF relative) and keep toilets etc as single sex spaces.

Transwomen in sport. No. You grow up as male and develop a male frame, male heart and lungs, etc, then no, you can't compete against women. Physiological performance is based on biology not the feelings in your head, so we divide sport by biology not the feelings.

I’m just coming back to the thread and I must say I am impressed by how civil we are all being. In my earlier post I referenced a few trans friends, and that was misinterpreted to mean I think my small experience should make the rule for everyone. I’m not that naive. Yes I only personally know a few transwomen, but I have read and learned about many others. Like any group there are bad apples but the vast vast majority of transpeople are just trying to live their lives without having their genital status constantly being an issue in public.

I vehemently disagree that being trans is a mental illness in and of itself, and I think that position is untenable. It is, however, a great way to discredit and de-legitimise people who disagree with you.

But still, nobody has answered my question. If you want to keep transwomen out of women’s spaces how exactly do you plan to police that? There are many trans people who pass very well. You never know about it because you don’t notice it. So no matter what you do there very well may be transwomen in “your” spaces. I am quite private so I don’t take off more than I would at the beach in front of any strangers. Perhaps we all need to decide where and how much to disrobe with the automatic expectation that there could be transwomen in the room. If it bothers you, most clothing can be tried on with a cami and underwear on. I know it’s not just dressing rooms but my point is it’s really very unusual to have a that you must undress in front of strangers with no private option. Where are these millions of clothing stores with mandatory shared dressing rooms anyway?

Indistinct, well, obviously if a trans person passes extraordinarily well then they will get away with using female facilities and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. This isn't common because human beings are very good at picking out the opposite sex, but yes, of course it can happen.

Essentially, what I would like to see is that we retain the cultural ability to challenge someone we perceive to be male in a female space. I can't enforce that males who are trans respect the specific female spaces if they think they can get away with using them, but I do think that helping women and men retain the confidence to challenge a boundary transgression is key to a lot of issues.

But I don’t think it’s healthy to go around being inherently scared of penises.

I'm not inherently scared of penises. I am sometimes scared of the body attached to the penis. I can't think of the last time I felt the need to be in a single sex space, and don't notice the sex of other people in the toilets - but I also can't remember the last time I was forced to enter a space where I felt vulnerable. Women aren't asking for every space to be single sex. They are stating their need to maintain the right to some single sex spaces. I don't want single sex supermarkets. I do want the law to make it possible to provide single sex spaces for women sleeping amongst strangers.

but my preferred solution to this would be an entirely unisex society where we stop sexualising bodies in what, to me, is a throwback to Victorian prudishness, and work towards equality on not just a social level but a bodily level.

Equality requires recognition of difference. Women do not go through male puberty, they do require contraception to control their fertility, they can be forced into pregnancy and (assuming no massive drop in population levels) most women will have children. None of this is ever surprising. Sometimes women have fertility problems, but this will be because of specifically female health issues. Ignoring all of this makes as much sense as pretending that any other kind of structural inequality doesn't exist.

Re: Victorian prudishness, 'prude' and 'frigid' have long been insults used to convince women that their boundaries don't matter. Women and girls need to be taught that they have the right to say no without being accused of transphobia/kinkshaming/lack of 'sexpositivity'.

That’s like saying you’ve never felt like a lesbian or a French person

Being French has nothing to do with feeling. Whether or not I feel as I imagine a French person would, I am not entitled to French citizenship because I don't meet the criteria.

Gender, and by extension, womanhood and manhood, are social constructs that have no place in modern society.

Completely agree.

I don’t believe my genitalia is the foundation of what makes me a woman.

I think the foundation of our rights is our humanity. I just happen to be a human with a female reproductive system. It's no more my identity than the colour of my hair. What else would make me a woman apart from female biology?

IndistinctRadioChatter
We will 'police' it as society has always policed sex segregated spaces that are there for the protection of women and children. By being able to ask a man to leave a space identified for women,
The number of trans women who 'pass' is infinitesimally small no matter what people claim. Humans have managed - and continue to manage to identify the opposite sex. Just ask all the gay men currently using adult human females as their surrogates. They suddenly have no problem in knowing that a TW is amazingly not an adult human female!

Frankly, concerned as I am about keeping women safe, I am incandescent with rage at those currently inviting every male self identifying as a woman to share toilets and changing rooms with children. A quick look at this week's revelations about men exhibiting their bodies and sex acts in their work place and inviting children of all ages to view an art exhibition displaying fetish and porn reminds me that diluting sex segregated spaces erodes safeguarding - of women and children. It is not your place to hand over our rights to these people.