Why are so many women ok with males taking their spaces?

[Throckmorton]

I don't get it. Why are so many women falling over themselves to be ok with males taking women's places in sport, in awards (working mum of the year FFS!), all over the shop? All over the NSPCC stuff for eg, it's women on twitter posting how transphobic every one is. I guess what I'm saying is what is making turkeys vote for Christmas? If I see one more TWAW/cis-women-are-transphobic meme on Facebook from otherwise intelligent women I'm going to bloody scream.

It really isn't just younger people. I have seen a fair few people on gransnet say they have no problem with it. And the 3 main reasons seem to be:
I'm not a fossil - move with the times you old fuddy duddies (= it's cool?)
I can handle it if an idiot man messes around inappropriately (= women who are scared are wusses, brave up)
Someone I know (or know of) is trans. This one I get. My hubby worked someone who had the surgery, and is a very gentle person. But this was when trans meant transexual and body dysmorphia seemed to be the only reasoning. Now of course it is all much more complicated and I think most people really don't know how to deal with the dilemma that there are all sorts of people who have put themselves under the trans umbrella and we just don't have a way to differentiate. Or are unaware of the more extreme members or think they are very very few. A relative said to me that the extremists were very few but just made the most noise and headlines. Truth is I don't know myself how many there are.

It's our socialisation innit?

We have, to a (wo)man, been told from an early age that it's our job to be kind and nurturing. To protect the vulnerable.

Like any group there are bad apples but the vast vast majority of transpeople are just trying to live their lives without having their genital status constantly being an issue in public.

I don't think it's currently possible to refer to trans people as a coherent group as the trans umbrella is so wide. Without the ability to define sex it is impossible to defend the rights of anybody who suffers prejudice because of their sex, whether they are female, trans, or gay.

Currently male people in heterosexual relationships who are happy to present as men all or some of the time, are not just claiming to speak for lesbians/trans people/women, but in positions of power where people listen to them.

“We should all learn to share spaces together, as equals”

• It just seems so idealistic. Who is going to ‘learn?’

You seem to think we are going to move to some bland, sexless society but I don’t think this will happen and women will take the collateral damage from this experiment.

Has anyone else noticed that it's most prevalent from non-straight women? Well, the ones I know that describe themselves as pansexual that is
??!! I'm a lesbian and we are literally erased by Trans ideology and I've had woke lesbians tell me I'm transphobic for rejecting the notion that trans identified men can be lesbians and therefore valid sexual partners for actual lesbians i.e. adult human females who are attracted by definition to other adult human females. Well that used to be the definition before Stonewall changed it.

It's internalised misogyny

And fear of putting one's head above the parapet

I think it's fine to criticize handmaidens. Saying it's unfair or even unfeminist to label women as handmaidens is thought-stopping and is an attempt to prevent us from analyzing male power.
First of all it's not true that everyone can be a feminist or all types of thinking are feminist. Liberal feminism was a backlash against real feminism and libfems unfortunately serve and shore up male power. An individualist pro porn pro prostitution pro trans stance isn't feminist. If you think it is then its fine to call yourself a libfem. But libfems are handmaidens and we do need the tools and space to analyze why they do what they do.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.

joystir59 - it's crazy isn't it. Lesbians are absolutely getting the worst end of this nightmare and yet there are some that fall over themselves to be woke about it all.

Real lesbians dont sleep with the enemy

but then the idea of going in wouldn't even cross their minds anyway.

That's it. If they are so lovely, and don't pass, then I would imagine a "good" transwoman would just do the right thing and not go where they know they would cause discomfort. None of the nice men I know would dream of wanting to be naked with women. It's simply the polite thing to do. Forcing one's way in is pretty hostile.

Re: Victorian prudishness, 'prude' and 'frigid' have long been insults used to convince women that their boundaries don't matter. Women and girls need to be taught that they have the right to say no without being accused of transphobia/kinkshaming/lack of 'sexpositivity'.
I am not sexpositive, and I'm sure my opinions on dress, promiscuity, porn etc would get me labelled as prude so I don't say anything; it's my opinion, and I have it because of my own personal experiences. I've never been raped; I have been molested/touched against my will, and I do not want a man even thinking of me in a sexual way. I would love to live in a non-sexual society, where people only have sex with partners they love. Because I think we would all be much happier and more balanced that way. But we're a long way from that. We cannot behave as if this is a utopia, and make laws accordingly, when we aren't. We do live in a highly sexualised society, and that's the reality we must cater for.

And why do so many women accuse other women of being 'pearl clutchers?' It seems to be the standard 'shut her down' phrase to anyone with any reservations about anything now.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.”

Yep.This.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.

maybe the Internet does not represent people's reality and on the whole people are far more tolerant and excepting of others, and show understanding of others lived experience when faced with it.

Shall we put this question to a referendum? I'm happy with that, how about you?

I vehemently disagree that being trans is a mental illness in and of itself, and I think that position is untenable.

What is "trans" as a state of being? Not sure what your position is exactly.

Also why is the position you described untenable? Genuinely interested.

I think it's fine to criticize handmaidens. Saying it's unfair or even unfeminist to label women as handmaidens is thought-stopping and is an attempt to prevent us from analyzing male power.

First of all it's not true that everyone can be a feminist or all types of thinking are feminist. Liberal feminism was a backlash against real feminism and libfems unfortunately serve and shore up male power. An individualist pro porn pro prostitution pro trans stance isn't feminist. If you think it is then its fine to call yourself a libfem. But libfems are handmaidens and we do need the tools and space to analyze why they do what they do.

Handmaidenry is the most upsetting part of patriarchy to me. Women selling out other women and throwing other women under the bus for the crumbs and scraps than men hand out to them in the form of attention.

I agree. I often cut them more slack because they're making their own way within a patriarchy. But sometimes they are so awful and misogynistic that I can't.

I think it's partly wanting to be right-on and non-bigoted, which affects both men and women. The (false imo) affiliation between homosexuality and trans makes people feel that if they are open-minded and support gay rights, then it naturally follows that it should be the same for trans, and to be fair that attitude is very strongly pushed by some woke commentators.

And party the way women are socialised to doubt themselves and make space for others, which is often discussed on here. I have always felt slightly uncomfortable, though I tried to be sympathetic, about transwomen - ever since I first heard about it. Not out of bigotry but because it just didn't seem quite right to me that you could decide you belonged to my sex when you physically didn't, and often for apparently gender-based reasons thast have nothing to do with your sex. But I wouldn't have dared to say so in the face of everyone else apparently thinking otherwise, until the last few years when a) other feminists explicated that for me, and b) the trans lobby became so extreme and unreasonable.

And I am very feminist and always have been - I'm considered an extreme feminist by most people I know. So if it took me a while I think the same will be true for a lot of women.

I agree with the OP that social media is depressing when you see woman after woman you thought you admired, jumping to defend MB and others without even looking at the facts. And women putting their pronouns as she/her on their twitter blurb like it's something you have to sign up to..

The only women who do this are younger than 25 - 30 years mostly and are still seeking the approval of males to validate their existence.

This was my first thought too. The girls from school who always said they didn't like other girls and only hung out with the boys, looking cool.

@indistinctradiochatter
How do you feel about male predators who enter gender-neutral or unisex toilets and place hidden cameras there? You can buy them online for just a few pounds, and some are almost invisible. You don't know they are there. Luckily, this one was discovered in a unisex Costa toilet by a vigilant customer:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-48647089?fbclid=IwAR38kxlPjOk2WxUO1jiQUJvJ83759d1tUja8kQshQi3swJ0ui3FJGy-pui8

The device, in the branch's sole unisex toilet, was securely attached with straps and had four small LED lights on the front.

How do you feel about autogynephilia men/transwomen, who regularly rummage in the wastebins in women's toilets for used tampons and sanitary pads, and wear them in their underwear?

How do you feel about these same people talking to young women/girls/female children in toilets asking them for pads or even asking if they can teach them how to insert a tampon? Showing an interest in tampon strings hanging down? I won't post any links here but you can easily find such cases online.

Do you think it's worth taking the risk of creating yet more opportunities for such perverts (I hope you agree that these people are perverts!) just so genuine transwomen don't feel excluded?

How are we going to police this?

I think it's a misconception as to what falls under that umbrella. Another poster up thread used the word "gentle" - and that's the word I'd use to describe transexuals I met 20 years ago who transitioned. Clearly unhappy souls - but IMO not a threat to women. Very much the "Hayley from Corrie" variety.

There's someone in the media right now who almost "passes" - but I sense a veneer and underneath barely concealed is an angry person with propensity towards violence.

I think the transexuals are few and far between - what scares me is an army of AGP.

I'm not sure about the younger generation (under 20-ish), peer pressure? Seeking attention?

As for friends - although I'm not overly GC - I frequently comment on Posie's stuff etc. on FB so it's not hidden. I have one friend whose child wears binders and is undergoing medical treatment... I feel desperately sorry for the child who is IMO just a "large plain girl" who doesn't know how to handle that during those difficult teenage years. Another friend is a gay man who's an activist for Sparkle + Pink News. We've been friends 10+ years and away from that topic he still makes me howl with laughter... but now there's an undercurrent and I see he actually hates women - you know, the type to refer to us as "fish" - not to our faces of course. He's got many trans friends on his FB and they are not "gentle".

I've lost friends. People I had long deep relationships with who I trusted more than anyone.

One is a woman who is lesbian, and I thought we would find ourselves disagreeing maybe about extremes but that she would absolutely believe in a feminism that centres those with female bodies. I was wrong, and she 'came out' as trans-masculine soon after.

I have other friends who identify as bi, queer or lesbian who absolutely seem to believe in need for preferred pronouns, transpeople as the most oppressed, TWAW.

Some are autistic - and I think that matters. I'm in a number of groups that affirm and accept that autistic people are most likely to the trans and that listening to austistic people means unquestioning agreement that a child can know that they are actually male/female and that as parents we need to respect and support that. Interestingly one of the reasons I think this is a massive safeguarding problem is fear for my autistic daughter and her peers who are most likely to find society confusing, puberty distressing and who always, by definition, have communication barriers.

One friend I believe doesn't know what to believe, except she wants a strong relationship with her daughter who announced, around the time the father announced he was actually gay and was moving out, that at 13 she definitely isn't female anymore. I'm sure the suddenness of becoming a single mother working full-time as well as studying has also been relevant to her not seeming upset by this whole thing writ large.

I think Stephen Whittle came on a few years back to answer the 'where are all the transmen' question by stating that they are all off doing manly things so of course aren't on woman-forums. I'd say a lot of women are so busy just coping with daily life that they haven't really thought much about the implications of male bodies in female spaces.

I feel desperately sorry for the child who is IMO just a "large plain girl" who doesn't know how to handle that during those difficult teenage years.

How dare you presume to know the mind of the daughter of a friend of yours? Calling a teenager a “large plain girl” is the worst kind of internalized misogyny. If this kind of thinking wasn’t perpetrated by women I would call it paternalism.

This thread is going the way I knew it would so I’m signing off. But please don’t interpret that as me having my mind changed. There’s just no point in arguing with people who are so committed to one viewpoint that they think they can read other people’s minds and don’t even see the irony of making disparaging remarks about a teenager’s appearance.

There’s just no point in arguing with people...

I didn't argue at all, @Indistinct. I just asked some questions. Would you mind answering them?