Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

Try a little experiment - name change and then post your disagreement with a point.

Also for this, I have done so, many times. And still not been called a MRA or anything. I namechange frequently (oddly enough, as TRAs keep trying to link my accounts to dox me) and..well basically nothing is different. And yes this is when posting minority views at times. Mind, I also do not count a number of posters replying to challenge my views..as them trying to shut me down or anything, so maybe thats where we differ?

It does not mean they are female

So why the oft repeated phrase TWAW?
Why the requirement to access women's spaces?
Why do some describe themselves as "adult human females"?

Justhadathought

My question was, why is using the word transwoman a lie

What all of them? Why do you always insist on lumping them all together in one big mass? That's what it sounds like.

We're specifically dealing with MTFs who want to be seen as women. Which ones don't expect to access women's spaces?

I can only think of Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander, and they are happy to call themselves male. Tell me who the other ones are so I can thank them for their consideration.

Give up! This is the saddest, most tedious thing ever.

YY.

am aware that this sounds cruel

Maybe. Too bad. I care about their feelings about as much as they care about mine, as a rape survivor who values female spaces.

when discussing safeguarding it's important to be able to accurately categorise the people who present the greatest risks

so I think I'll keep calling males males thanks, even if it does mean some people won't like me

Two problems with 'transwoman'

1. as has been explained again and again on this thread, it confuses people with many thinking it refers to a woman who is trans.

2. it's not good enough. Most places online you would get pulled up for 'transwoman', you have to write 'trans woman' with the space. The reason for that is so it can be claimed that 'trans women and cis women are just two different sorts of women' and then we're in full-on TWAW territory with all the problems that entails.

'Transwoman' pisses off both 'sides' of this debate. The only people who think it's a solution are those who identify as taking a reasonable middle ground but who are too scared to go and ask the TRAs what they think of their brilliant suggestion so they berate women instead.

Three problems.

3. rohypnol effect.

The TWAW thing is a completely separate debate to refusing to call them transwoman.

I personally think the way forward is for transgender people to embrace their transgender status. Transwoman should be seen as Transwoman.

If you keep shouting ‘you’re a man!’ To someone who doesn’t feel like one and get rid of the middle ground where compromise can be found you will find the replies will be ‘I’m a woman!’

If you embrace the ‘you’re a transwoman’ and include specific sections for sports, surveys, prisons to accommodate without infringing on anyone else.

You leave the door open for identity to be respected and open new doors where all parties can feel safe.

Like it or not, transgender individuals aren’t just going to disappear if you keep calling them men, they are likely to just fight harder and have more grounds to call opposers ‘bigots’

The only way a solution can be found if it both parties make some attempt to recognise the others struggles and opinions.

The only people who think it's a solution are those who identify as taking a reasonable middle ground but who are too scared to go and ask the TRAs what they think of their brilliant suggestion so they berate women instead.

Perfect bit of summing up

When you re-name a man as a transwoman, you allow men to deny their homophobia and sexism.

A man feels unsafe in men's spaces
That's a problem for men to sort out, not women

A man rejects masculinity and wants to present as feminine
Deal with it, chaps. If you can't accept a man with fake boobs amongst you, don't try to shame women into taking care of him

A man wants to play golf in a short skirt and frilly blouse
Why not, chaps? What's stopping you from making him welcome?

I'll tell you what's stopping you. It's the 'woman' bit in transwoman.
The language allows you to dump your homophobic disgust on women.

Every time I remind you of the XY, and leave out the 'woman' in transwoman, I make it harder for you to walk away. I make you own the problem.

I personally think the way forward is for transgender people to embrace their transgender status

I agree with this.

Transwoman should be seen as Transwoman

Given that language is apparently so flexible I would suggest that transwomen would more useful refer to women who wish to "transition" to a more stereotypically masculine appearance, and that transman should refer to to men who wish to "transition" to a more stereotypically feminine appearance. Doesn't step on any toes, is truthful, and more easily understood.

To someone who doesn’t feel like one

What does feeling like a man or a woman mean?

If you keep shouting ‘you’re a man!’ To someone who doesn’t feel like one and get rid of the middle ground where compromise can be found you will find the replies will be ‘I’m a woman!’

If anyone dared to keep shouting 'you're a man' To someone who doesn’t feel like one they're more likely to be punched in the face these days! Wtf?

Or are you saying that you’ve seen into every Transwomans mind and it’s not true?

For the last time, I/we don't care what they feel about themselves. Do they care what I feel about myself? No! And I don't demand they do. That would be utterly narcissistic.

Transgender ideology and its absurd postures have created this situation.

In the past, most fully transitioned MTF transexuals were cautiously welcomed and accepted as being 'transwomen'. That goodwill has now been destroyed through the persistence of people such as yourself. You have helped to destroy that and you are making it worse with every single post you make on this thread now.

Goodwill is a two way process; a negotiated relationship - not a forced one.

I personally think the way forward is for transgender people to embrace their transgender status. Transwoman should be seen as Transwoman.

What did they say when you suggested this?

transwoman a lie

It was a courteous lie Nobody really ever believed or felt that men could become women. It was the the sort of common courtesy that you have now helped to destroy through your continual disregard for what people have been telling you.

It's over. And the radical trans movement has done that to itself.

If you keep shouting ‘you’re a man!’ To someone who doesn’t feel like one and get rid of the middle ground where compromise can be found you will find the replies will be ‘I’m a woman!’

There is no longer any compromise. It's gone way too far for that. And every post you make makes it worse.

just because someone wants to be something they can never be, doesn't mean I have to pretend along with them.

How can a transwoman not be a transwoman? Transwoman is a word that describes this transition.

I wouldn’t know how to find these TRAs that you seem to all have on speed dial even if I wanted too. I tried going on twitter once to search and think I ended up in a Chinese cartoon.

I’m already on MN for myself, I see these threads, I have an opinion, so I comment, why is that such a terrible thing?

You have helped to destroy that and you are making it worse with every single post you make on this thread now.

Just popping off to find that ‘identifying gaslighting’ post that r0wan posted. You will not silence me, no matter how much you’re desperate too.

Bare
Metaphorically speaking, shouting over the internet, obviously.

Transwoman is a word that describes this transition

It is not possible to transition to being a woman.

If anyone dared to keep shouting 'you're a man' To someone who doesn’t feel like one they're more likely to be punched in the face these days! Wtf?

Eesh, to say I'm the one apparently with comprehension problems, there's a load of point missing or mis-reading going on from other quarters
It was obvious it was referring to posters who repeatedly misgender or name call for presumably not posting womanly enough.
If it's me mis-reading then fair enough, I'll put it down to my comprehension problems lol.
Are you reading the same thread? People are talking about people shouting you're a man! repeatedly to those who aren't.
It happens all the time not just in real life.
On here too.

When you re-name a man as a transwoman, you allow men to deny their homophobia and sexism

Really? So what happens when you re-name a woman as a transman? Is that allowing women to deny their homophobia and sexism?

I'm still yay on lifting of restricted terminology.

Jus' sayin'.