Use of trans identified male as opposed to transwoman.

[happydappy2]

MNHQ There has been much written recently about how the controlling of the words we use, is very misleading. Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood. In light of this, would you reconsider yr guidelines that Trans Identified Male can not be used? It would seem a more factually accurate description of a human male who presents in a stereotypically female way. Thank you.

then playing innocent about why there aren’t a lot of non GC posters starting threads in here

I'm not playing innocent at all.

I've noticed that some posters on this board only post on certain types of issues, and not on others. As I've mentioned there have been several recent threads about make-up for example; and just the other day one about all girl secondary schools.

There is nothing stopping anyone creating a thread about a women's issue issue that motivates them, as far as I can see.And then there is a vast 'other' forum on all sorts of issues ( on mumsnet).

Justhadathought

Do you only post on threads where you agree with the OP then? You never post an opposing view to anything?

Not welcoming debate, is a strange view to have. It’s not the people patting your backs that you need to get through too to be heard, you know

We all come here for different reasons. For me this board informs and prepares me for the 'real' debate, which is out there - off the internet. The general public still has little idea about what is going on in the name of trans rights.

Thanks to the amazing women on this board and the abuse of natal women - whether in prisons, sport, changing rooms or elsewhere - I have become aware of, I now can no longer call anyone born a man a transwoman.

Language is so important - appropriating the term woman is what has enabled this.

Using "rohypnol" metaphor of an earlier board, our society has been lulled into a false sense of security

In response to Lang's poll... Yes. It is time the special FWR language rules are lifted, no words are banned, and the standard MN guidelines are applied to keep debate civil and respectful.

Incidentally, the amount of backlash on this thread to the suggestion that women should be allowed to call male people 'men' is indeed very illuminating.

Julia Long's speech, and Barracker's article, have really clarified this issue for me. It is absolutely vital that humans can use accurate, factually correct language. How else can we communicate clearly and effectively?

Please please please MNHQ let us talk freely.

Do you only post on threads where you agree with the OP then? You never post an opposing view to anything?

As I've mentioned I recently posted in a thread about make-up - and there was quite a bit of disagreement on it. People with strong and differing views. I don't come here for disagreement over really important things, though. Which is why I ceased to be involved. Make-up is just not that big an issue for me, and I don't want to waste my time on that argument.

So, no I don't come here for basic divergence of view and endless debate. I come here for information sharing and informed GC viewpoints.

That's not to say I don't see the need for debate in some areas of life. I do! This is a serious issue for me. The most consuming for me at present. I know what I think, and endless debate is pointless. As we've seen, nobody has had their stance changed by any of this today.

The internet is the best place to reach people these days.
Most people get their knowledge and form opinions based on what they read on the Internet.
Being one of the only places that has a majority GC viewpoint, id have thought you’d want discussions to be open to all. Not just those who are already GC through and through.

Although following on from another post, i don’t think it’s a bad idea to have this section renamed to gender critical forum so that we can encourage woman who have this section blocked back into feminism with a feminism section that isn’t predominantly focused on transwoman.

It's a yay from me.

The precise use of language is important.

Facts are important.

Incidentally, the amount of backlash on this thread to the suggestion that women should be allowed to call male people 'men' is indeed very illuminating,

Indeed

Incidentally, the amount of backlash on this thread to the suggestion that women should be allowed to call male people 'men' is indeed very illuminating.

Even more illuminating is that women are simply saying We should be able to say it how we see it and SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE.

Speaks volumes that every possible derailment tactic has been deployed to distract from that.

I haven’t said you shouldn’t be allowed your word. I don’t agree with your reasons why but in your poll I said nay or yay or whichever way that meant I don’t care what words are banned.

Being one of the only places that has a majority GC viewpoint, id have thought you’d want discussions to be open to all. Not just those who are already GC through and through

Of course it is open. But what is the point? Just to spend all day Saturday in conflict with others. Why? That's not why people, by & large come here is it? Well, not to certain threads: the ones on the trans issue.

I only post on one other forum ( almost totally male), and recently have distanced myself from that - because it has just become so bogged down in pointless circular debate - and there is little interest for me in it ( an urban architecture forum). I see Mumsnet not as a debating chamber; but as a meeting point and information source.

As the op said
"Many women reject the word transwoman as it can be misunderstood"

After the backlash on this thread I am now determined to not use the words trans women irl, wherever possible.

Restriction of terms on FWR to be removed and usual forum rules about civility and goadiness to be deemed sufficient.

Yes. Clarity is important, women need to be able to name things honestly and without fear.

Really sorry, don't have time TRTWT, so ignore if you need to, but these excerpts from the Stonewall Glossary have given me an idea:

TRANSGENDER MAN
A term used to describe someone who is assigned female at birth but identifies and lives as a man. This may be shortened to trans man, or FTM, an abbreviation for female-to-male.

Can't we all just stick to FTMan and MTFemale/MTF.

TRANSGENDER WOMAN
A term used to describe someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies and lives as a woman. This may be shortened to trans woman, or MTF, an abbreviation for male-to-female.

I'm bound to have offended someone, but surely if it's on the Stonewall site, it can't be that off the mark. Fingers crossed.

I do find the use of the pronoun "they/them" confusing and uncomfortable, though.

I can't get my head around "they" referring to just one person when my friend says it - I genuinely forget and always question her - awkward!

I hate compelled speech. It just feels so Orwellian.

It was the compelled speech that first got me. Why can't I say what I see? Stop trying to mess with my head, it's just mean.

Sorry NameChange I don't feel at all comfortable using compelled speech from anyone, least of all Stonewall. Not having a go at you, I just don't find their definition truthful. MtF or FtM implies that someone can become the opposite sex and that's not possible.

I prefer referring to how someone identifies as that is truly what it is about.

How someone defines themselves - whether it be their gender, personality or interests / has nothing to do with me. Someone could call themselves an artist but I might call it art. They can but I might say it's rubbish and a waste of canvas!

We are all born one way or another, sex is binary. Yes there is DSD but you can also be born with Down's syndrome and still be male or female.

It's not just to be provocative. It's because I don't agree with some of the hateful comments that are written. There will be people reading them who are themselves, or have family members, directly affected

I have affected family members. Nothing I read here makes me concerned for my loved ones. In fact, I am often grateful for the clear thinking, which is in contrast to the crap I get fed as a mom by so-called 'support groups'.

Mumsnet helps me keep my head when all about me are losing theirs.

In fact, the posts from one particular poster, who has a trans identified sibling, (I think her user name starts with Red) really helped me cope with a very rocky time with my eldest a while back. Very thankful for FWR (I mostly lurk). Signed, mom of two trans kids.

TalkingintheDark

2. Shaming and Emotional Invalidation.
When abusers are unable to convince you that your truth is a false reality, or when they feel they need to add an extra dose of emotional anesthesia to keep you quiet and compliant about their transgressions, they’ll add in subtle shaming or emotional invalidation

I have affected family members. Nothing I read here makes me concerned for my loved ones. In fact, I am often grateful for the clear thinking, which is in contrast to the crap I get fed as a mom by so-called 'support groups'.

That’s lovely to hear, JanesKettle 💐